Beyond The Sprues
Modelling => Ideas & Inspiration => Land => Topic started by: dy031101 on March 14, 2016, 02:44:50 PM
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Would someone be able to identify the model in the attachment i.e. is it an actual paper project?
Weaver thank you.
I always wondered about the efficacy of a system that has a canvas cover like the AMX. Wouldn't it have even been vulnerable to small arms fire?
Indeed. The armour overlaps so the bullet can't get through to the interior, but it still rips the fabric. Of course all fabric mantle covers have this issue, but the AMX-type turret has a lot more square footage of it than most.
Can some sort of a bullet- and shrapnel-resistant fabric cover be practically implemented to protect the gun breech of this model at maximum gun depression? Would such a tank be able to use pressurized NBC system, or would the breech cover still cause as much problem as the AMX-13 has?
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Don't quote me but I'm pretty sure most canvas breech covers are for improved dust & water resistance, rather than any camouflaging of weak points.
However, I can't see a problem with using a Kevlar cloth or going future-tech & using flexible boron carbide (link (http://news.discovery.com/tech/gear-and-gadgets/t-shirt-body-armor-tank.htm))
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Don't quote me but I'm pretty sure most canvas breech covers are for improved dust & water resistance, rather than any camouflaging of weak points.
I've been under the impression of that, too. When I said "protect" in the thread OP I meant in terms of NBC defense, and bullet & shrapnel resistance was brought up as an inquiry on how well that breech cover can be made to hold up in combat under NBC conditions even though, granted, that tank's arrangement doesn't seem to expose as much fabrics when the gun is depressed as an AMX-13 or SK-105.
Unless some sort of an extra measure can be implemented between the gun breech and the autoloader (I see the gunner's sight to the turret's left hand side, which suggests that the tank is equipped with one)......
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The model in the attached photo was a proposed Leopard 2 spin off that was intended to be smaller, lighter and have a lower turret profile. The section of roof over the gun would move so that the maximum elevation and especially depression weren't limited by the lower turret. I'm not sure of the actual name of the project so I labeled the images I saved on my desktop as "Wegmann Leo" (the W in KMW).
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If the turret is unmanned, autoloading and oscillating, NBC defense would be fairly simple. The turret would sit in
a well completely separated from the crewed area.
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If the turret is unmanned, autoloading and oscillating, NBC defense would be fairly simple. The turret would sit in
a well completely separated from the crewed area.
The turret in this case seems still manned, just the turret roof over the gun gets elevated and depressed with it. Either that, or the gun might be further isolated from the rest of the turret.
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If the turret is unmanned, autoloading and oscillating, NBC defense would be fairly simple. The turret would sit in
a well completely separated from the crewed area.
The turret in this case seems still manned, just the turret roof over the gun gets elevated and depressed with it. Either that, or the gun might be further isolated from the rest of the turret.
Sorry, I wasn't speaking of the turret in the photo, I was referring to a generic conception.
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Normally, for a split turret like the model has, an over-pressure system is usually considered sufficient to protect the fighting compartment if it is exposed when the gun is depressed. It needs to be quite strong though, as I understand it. As has been suggested, isolating the autoloader from the crew is however considered a better idea if possible for NBC defence.
Early oscillating turrets had considerable problems with NBC defence with the quite considerable range of movement. This is what led their major exponents, the French to largely abandon their use after the AMX-13. However, they didn't stop working on them and by the late 1980s they were back on the market in a range of smaller, APC based turrets mounting up to about a 90mm gun. They claimed they had beaten the problem with sealing the turret but I never learnt how. Perhaps again it was use of a large over-pressure? As far as I am aware, no one, not even the French Army bought any though...
The use of a cloth/leather/etc. cover would help considerably. Making it bullet/splinter resistant would help even further. However, until the 1990s, the cost of using synthetics was against widespread use by most military forces. That it was also resistant to stretching would I feel tend to tell against it's use as well.
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Modern tank guns tend to use combustible cartridge cases that would be consumed during firing, leaving only the base. Is there a typical pattern for turrets that have an autoloader (Leclerc, Kyu-Maru, T-72, ZTZ-99, and etc.) to have the cartridge bases ejected from the turret i.e. if I should place an ejection port for cartridge bases on the turret depicted in the thread OP, where would such a port typically be?
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Modern tank guns tend to use combustible cartridge cases that would be consumed during firing, leaving only the base. Is there a typical pattern for turrets that have an autoloader (Leclerc, Kyu-Maru, T-72, ZTZ-99, and etc.) to have the cartridge bases ejected from the turret i.e. if I should place an ejection port for cartridge bases on the turret depicted in the thread OP, where would such a port typically be?
Depends on whether you're using an autoloader or not. With an autoloader, the ejection port would be near to the end of the autoloading cycle. Without an autoloader, it would be situated near where the human loader stood/sat in the vehicle. Typically, in a human loaded vehicle, there is sufficient space for 10-20 round bases to be stored in the vehicle and they are ejected when there is time between engagements by the human loader. This could be through a dedicated hatch or the loader's hatch in the turret roof.
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With an autoloader, the ejection port would be near to the end of the autoloading cycle.
Does anyone recognize this drawing?
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The use of gallons as the fuel tank measure indicates to me either US or British in origin.
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With an autoloader, the ejection port would be near to the end of the autoloading cycle.
Does anyone happen to know where that ejection port would be on a Leclerc tank?
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Why would the LeClerc actually require an ejection port? The ammunition used by the LeClerc is the same as that used by the Leopard II and the Abrams and this is a semi-combustible case cartridge that when fired leaves behind for ejection a base piece that holds the primer and it is about the size of a large ashtray. It takes up very little space and can be disposed of easily by tossing it out the hatch if necessary. Google will provide you with plenty of images of the 120mm semi-combustible ammunition and you can judge for yourself whether an ejection port is really necessary.
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With an autoloader, the ejection port would be near to the end of the autoloading cycle.
Does anyone happen to know where that ejection port would be on a Leclerc tank?
Spent cartridges are automatically ejected through a turret rear port...
[Source (http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/modern/France/AMX-56_Leclerc.php)]
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Seem to be too many "http://"'s in the link, Brian.
This works better.
[Source ([url]http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/modern/France/AMX-56_Leclerc.php[/url])]
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Does anyone happen to know where that ejection port would be on a Leclerc tank?
https://youtu.be/dyjg5gLD-Bw?t=3m35s
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Seem to be too many "http://"'s in the link, Brian.
Now fixed, not sure what happened there.
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Quick kitbash with the CM-32.
Source HERE (https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1941213946046168&id=100004727437955)
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(http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/3141_OO3_08.jpg)
“Tank of the Future.” Right in there with Pentagon pipe dreams of the “Pentomic” battlefield, tank designers at Aberdeen Proving Ground produced this racy model of a streamlined, rocket-shooting, armored fighting vehicle. With no info accompanying this March 1960 photo, we speculate that the ultra-low silhouetted tank would have a front-mounted engine (see fan on the deck and front drive sprocket on the Christie suspension) along with an unmanned, rotating turret with swing-up rocket tubes, underslung heavy machine gun and TV camera.
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I get the sense this is a contemporary idea.
(https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-c87d6ad6ddc79d9a8889f3eadfeac790)
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Quick kitbash with the CM-32.
Source HERE (https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1941213946046168&id=100004727437955)
The Stryker MGS turret looks much better on the CM-32 hull than it ever did on the Stryker.
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Quick kitbash with the CM-32.
Source HERE (https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1941213946046168&id=100004727437955)
Nice work on both kits.
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When looking for pictures of russia's Uran-9 UGV, Google recommended these pictures. Of a toy. Naughty Google!
From "Comandos em Ação" (a Brazilian(?) G.I.Joe) / Mauler MBT from G.I.Joe:
(https://d1o6h00a1h5k7q.cloudfront.net/imagens/img_g/0479/216463.jpg)
(https://d1o6h00a1h5k7q.cloudfront.net/imagens/img_m/0479/216463_1.jpg)
SOURCE (https://www.harpyaleiloes.com.br/peca.asp?ID=216463)
With side-by-side hatches and no hatches on the turret readily visible, it reminded me of the T-14 Armata or the recent AbramsX demonstrator with their crew in the hull and unmanned turrets. With the Mauler dating from 1985, it looks like Hasbro's tank design department was way ahead of its time.
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^ kind of a LAV 75mm Turret vibe there. Didn't know that was part of the GI Joe collection.
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Good eye! :smiley: I knew that turret/barrel looked familiar.
Looking at it now, it seems the Mauler is heavily inspired by the HSVT-L. That also means the turret isn't actually unmanned. Just looks that way on the Mauler.
(https://static.warthunder.com/upload/image/!%202020%20NEWS/05%20May/HSTV/hstv_l_01_1280h720_af0a6040d629c32a192ddfedbf0a732e.jpg)
SOURCE (https://warthunder.com/en/news/6711-development-hstv-l-view-of-tomorrow-en)
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Reminds me the XM274 ARES 75mm heavy autocannon:
(https://i.redd.it/knaoduu07h4z.jpg)
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For low profile turrets, consider the US experimental T92 light tank. I think that basic concept, combined with the STV103's suspension for elevating the gun, could work well.
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Reminds me the XM274 ARES 75mm heavy autocannon:
Yup, using the same AAI turret and ARES gun as on the wheeled LAV-75 mentioned by Graeme.
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(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/e68/GTwiner/20230622_215644.jpg)
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Not sure if this totally fits here, this is my fictional design for a Tiger II/E-50 turret with an Oscillating gun breach that I call the Python. The name/idea for the design was inspired by a similar 1/35 resin turret released by Paper Panzer Productions called the KingCobra. I also drew inspiration from the M60A2 "Starship" turret & the Panther Schmalturm. I 3D printed all the parts but kinda lost interest after that, I really should get back to it some day ;D
(http://migeater.net/models/photos/python_3d_06.jpg)
(http://migeater.net/models/photos/python_01.jpg)
(http://migeater.net/models/photos/python_02.jpg)
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Interesting - what scale?
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... I really should get back to it some day ;D
Yes, you really should! That oscillating gun breach concept is a brilliant way of dealing with gun depression in a low-profile turret. Is that your original concept? If not, what was it inspired by?
[Edit] Weirdly, I just came across a reference to a c.1980 Wegmann Flachturm proposal for a future Leopard 2 development. The Germans called their roof hatch a Turmdachklappe.
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/west-german-leopard-3-mbt.712/#post-596571 (https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/west-german-leopard-3-mbt.712/#post-596571)
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It's in 1/35 scale.
The inspiration chain started with a patent filed by Rheinmetall in 1957 for a oscillating gun breach design.
(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/a507cb_54b76f9c966c4752b404649209a646be~mv2.png)
A few years ago Paper Panzer Productions released a resin turret based on that design, which I used on a Panzer E-75 (I should finish that one too! ;D )
(http://migeater.net/models/photos/e75kk_05.jpg)
After that I wanted to make my own design based on on the oscillating gun concept for the Panzer E-50.