Author Topic: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 152046 times)

Offline AGRA

  • Took the opportunity to tease us with a RAAF F-82
Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #75 on: March 24, 2013, 03:54:05 PM »
Hey GTX... isn't it sad to think that this improvised WWII vintage SPG is still more effective and purposeful than anything we have in the Australian Army! Sad.... really sad!!!!

RBS 70 is a very good short range air defence system. Far better anti aircraft coverage than a quad MG. With the new Bushmaster RBS 70 carrier version will also be better protected and more mobile than the Vickers light tank.

Offline M.A.D

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #76 on: March 24, 2013, 05:50:38 PM »
A couple of rarities for you:

ZRPK "Donets" :



ZSU-37-2 "Yenisei ":




I would be interested to know how the 'Donets' is supposed to fire what looks like 9K31 Strela-1, aka SA-9 'Gaskin' missiles (or are they 9K35 Strela-10, aka SA-13 'Gopher'.  -either way, with the exception of the turret being perfectly in the forward or rear position? Any other angle would not allow the launch-boxes to be elevated ??

As for the ZSU-37-2 'Yenisei', this baby with its two 37mm (37 mm 500P Angara) cannon and based on the chassis of the experimental SU-100P self-propelled gun, would have been an even more powerful and hard hitting system than the it competed and lost against - the ZSU-23-4 Shilka SPAAG in 1962. I believe this decision was based on the fact that the ZSU-37-2 'Yenisei' would have been significantly more expensive!

Here is a multi-view drawing of the ZSU-37-2 'Yenisei', for anyone willing to have a crack at making a model of this SPAAG

M.A.D


Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #77 on: March 24, 2013, 06:02:24 PM »
Depends on where the elevation point is.  If its at the rear of the boxes, then it would work what ever the position of the turret.  If it has a two position arm, which elevates and then the boxes elevate, that would also work.   It might be just a  prototype anyway, it was never fielded and the reason why it was unsuccessful might well be because of what you've noticed...  ;D

Offline M.A.D

  • Also likes a bit of arse...
  • Wrote a great story about a Christmas Air Battle
Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #78 on: March 24, 2013, 09:15:35 PM »
Hey GTX... isn't it sad to think that this improvised WWII vintage SPG is still more effective and purposeful than anything we have in the Australian Army! Sad.... really sad!!!!


RBS 70 is a very good short range air defence system. Far better anti aircraft coverage than a quad MG. With the new Bushmaster RBS 70 carrier version will also be better protected and more mobile than the Vickers light tank.


Sorry gent's, I know its 'what if'.
But I think you are missing my point. The ADF as a whole has a ridiculous - no comical air defence capability!
Rickshaw the MAG-58 is my primary weapon I use in what I do! It's a great gun, but it is an 'ultra' last line of defence weapon you would want to be using against helicopters/aircraft!!
As for the handful of RBS-70 MANPAD or Bushmaster deployed configuration. There are no where near enough to go around! You have to remember, that this handful of RBS-70 have to defend everything from airfields, ground formations and up until a few years ago, they were deployed upon our naval ships to supplement or give a degree of air-defence. Times have changed, and so has the capability within our region!

Unfortunately, we have taken the US/British approach (or neglect) with our air-defence capability. We put to much emphasis and reliance in our fighter/interceptor capability, whilst completely and utterly neglecting a layered air-defence system. I don't mean that the ADF needs the likes of S300/400 or Patriot batteries, nor Gepard or Tunguska-M1(although I am a big fan of the Pantsir S1 (SA-22 Greyhound) gun/missile system - for its capability and price!!) . But what we do need as a bare minimum is the likes of cheap and simple AAA platforms (25mm-35mm) (plus these make excellent ground-to-ground weapons as well),  Short-Medium range SAM's (not to be confused with MANPAD's) - say like RBS 23 BAMSE all-weather air defence missile system or NASAMS system, some GIRAFFE AMB cost-effective 3D surveillance radar system (although I am a fan of the Pantsir S1 (SA-22 Greyhound) - for its capability and price!!). Ideally I would also like to see simple, basic and affordable platforms adopted to support army formations - like that of the Turkish Pedestal-Mounted Air Defence Missile System (PMADS) or like the Dutch Fennek
<a href="" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win"></a>

, with at least a 25mm chain gun mounted with it (the .50 cal on the U.S. Avenger system is pathetic!)or what about LAV-AD Blazer(using a combination of Stinger MANPAD's and 25mm Gatling gun)
<a href="" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win"></a>

Now that's what I'm talking about!!

M.A.D

« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 09:17:31 PM by M.A.D »

Offline Gingie

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #79 on: March 24, 2013, 09:50:41 PM »

Do you have details/photos?


Here's a mix of pics:






Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #80 on: March 25, 2013, 09:10:08 AM »
But I think you are missing my point. The ADF as a whole has a ridiculous - no comical air defence capability!


Does it need one?  We face no real enemy at the moment and we are assured if we do, the RAAF and our allies, will be capable of achieving air supremacy, so why waste valuable resources on AD systems?  As it is, when we did have AD systems, they were all low-level ones such as the RBS-70 and the Rapier and intended as last-ditch weapons.

Quote
Rickshaw the MAG-58 is my primary weapon I use in what I do! It's a great gun, but it is an 'ultra' last line of defence weapon you would want to be using against helicopters/aircraft!!


Yet you held up a weapon system which was intended to be exactly that, as what we should be aspiring to.  Such a vehicle equipped with four MAG58s instead of four Besas would be more capable than the one with four Besas.   It would be more reliable.

Quote
As for the handful of RBS-70 MANPAD or Bushmaster deployed configuration. There are no where near enough to go around! You have to remember, that this handful of RBS-70 have to defend everything from airfields, ground formations and up until a few years ago, they were deployed upon our naval ships to supplement or give a degree of air-defence. Times have changed, and so has the capability within our region!


The capability has changed and has now started to catch up with our clear superiority in aircraft.  We have supplemented that with AEW "Wedgetail".   Finances for the army and perhaps more importantly manpower has worsened and of course our over-whelming concentration of fighting counter-insurgency warfare has meant that the army had a clear choice and something had to go.  As insurgents don't have aircraft, you can guess which one.

Quote
Unfortunately, we have taken the US/British approach (or neglect) with our air-defence capability. We put to much emphasis and reliance in our fighter/interceptor capability, whilst completely and utterly neglecting a layered air-defence system. I don't mean that the ADF needs the likes of S300/400 or Patriot batteries, nor Gepard or Tunguska-M1(although I am a big fan of the Pantsir S1 (SA-22 Greyhound) gun/missile system - for its capability and price!!) . But what we do need as a bare minimum is the likes of cheap and simple AAA platforms (25mm-35mm) (plus these make excellent ground-to-ground weapons as well),  Short-Medium range SAM's (not to be confused with MANPAD's) - say like RBS 23 BAMSE all-weather air defence missile system or NASAMS system, some GIRAFFE AMB cost-effective 3D surveillance radar system (although I am a fan of the Pantsir S1 (SA-22 Greyhound) - for its capability and price!!). Ideally I would also like to see simple, basic and affordable platforms adopted to support army formations - like that of the Turkish Pedestal-Mounted Air Defence Missile System (PMADS) or like the Dutch Fennek


All well and ideal.  Unfortunately in real life these things need to be justified.   It is a bit hard to build an AD system against a non-existent threat (Taliban or civil unrest in the Solomons or East Timor or other small island states in our region).   Treasure cuts the cloth for the defence forces and the Army has been feeling the pinch, as it has a lower priority than Navy or Air Force.   High employment in the civilian economy means that Army also has to compete for manpower with mines which offer twice-treble the wages it can.  So, it has and is finding it hard to find recruits to man assets which are deemed "low priority".   Once we finally withdraw from Afghanistan and now the Solomons Army will, like after Vietnam be faced with rebuilding itself as a conventional force so we may see a return of AD as a priority.   As you note, we are unlikely to ever afford or need a multi-layered AD system, so I'd expect to see a return of MANPADS and low-level systems.   I doubt they will be self-propelled though, even with the movement to a more mechanised force.

Gun based systems will  always suffer from the problem that the attacking elements will have missiles that outrange them.  It was what eventually killed the US DIVADS Sgt.York systems and is why we are seeing increasing reliance on SAM systems even on gun armed AD vehicles.    It is easier to increase the range on a SAM than it is a gun.

Quote
http://youtu.be/_jpQDpuykRE
, with at least a 25mm chain gun mounted with it (the .50 cal on the U.S. Avenger system is pathetic!)or what about LAV-AD Blazer(using a combination of Stinger MANPAD's and 25mm Gatling gun)
http://youtu.be/XooFmPUt6aA
Now that's what I'm talking about!!

M.A.D


Always be wary of manufacturers claims about their systems.  ;D

Offline apophenia

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #81 on: March 28, 2013, 09:54:39 AM »
Gingie: Gorgeous work on that scratched SIDAM turret!  :)
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #82 on: March 31, 2013, 05:20:24 AM »
Gingie: Gorgeous work on that scratched SIDAM turret!  :)

Agreed.
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Offline Daryl J.

  • Assures us he rarely uses model glue in dentistry
Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #83 on: March 31, 2013, 05:26:23 AM »
Rooftop mounted AA batteries on the high rises in Seoul? 
kwyxdxLg5T

Offline Weaver

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #84 on: April 19, 2013, 02:09:27 AM »
Here's one I've not seen before: AMX-VCI with a Quad .50 cal on the roof. Incorrectly captioned on Wikipedia as an AMX-13 DCA..... ???

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Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #85 on: April 19, 2013, 02:28:42 AM »
Those Maxson turrets pop up everywhere still.

Cheers,

Logan

Offline AGRA

  • Took the opportunity to tease us with a RAAF F-82
Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #86 on: April 19, 2013, 06:04:59 AM »
Those Maxson turrets pop up everywhere still.

They must be fun to shoot.

Offline apophenia

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #87 on: April 19, 2013, 09:24:22 AM »
There was a brief discussion on Missing-Lynx about that Antoine Misner photo of an AMX VCI with Maxson mount. Apparently, it was a one-off prototype.

According to JEDsite, there was also a Char 48FCM ~ aka Char 12T FCM, DCA de Quatre Canons de 20mm - 4x20mm cannon in FL-4 turret.
Froglord: "... amphibious doom descends ... approach the alter and swear your allegiance to the swamp."

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #88 on: April 19, 2013, 11:35:56 AM »
According to The Big Boy's and Girl's Book of World Knowledge there was also a prototype AMX-13 with a Bofors 40mm in an "angular turret".   Anybody got any pictures?

Offline Weaver

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« Last Edit: October 17, 2016, 09:25:54 AM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #90 on: April 20, 2013, 04:21:55 AM »
Looks a little like the Otomatic:



or more so, the Crusader with 40mm:

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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #91 on: April 20, 2013, 05:27:58 AM »
Interesting article on the Crusader AA - click the pic to go to the article:

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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #92 on: April 20, 2013, 06:10:10 AM »
Random idea:  Churchill Tank with Quad .50 cal
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #93 on: April 28, 2013, 11:27:01 AM »
Marcus Schoebel has shared some images of his Geschuetzwagen VI 3,7cm Quad Anti Aaircraft Turret SP FlaK "what if" super heavy tank with 3,7cm quad anti aircraft turret at the Track-Link forums which sadly do not allow hot-linking images :( so you need to click on the html to view his model. 

The model is based on the Trumpeter 1:35th scale Geschützwagen VI 17cm Grille 2 with the turret sourced from German-Master-Kit.


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Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #94 on: April 28, 2013, 03:05:51 PM »
Ouch!  Wouldn't want to be caught by that.   :o

Have you invited him?

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #95 on: April 28, 2013, 05:44:07 PM »
Wicked!
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Gingie

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #96 on: April 28, 2013, 11:45:11 PM »
that is awesome!

Offline Dr. YoKai

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #97 on: April 29, 2013, 02:04:46 AM »
 That is pretty intense...anybody got a recommendation about the red color on the hull?

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #98 on: December 23, 2013, 04:24:00 AM »
Random idea:  Vehicle mounted RIM-7.  Inother words, something like this:

 

on something like this:

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Offline Gingie

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Re: Anti-Aircraft: SPAAG/SAM Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #99 on: December 23, 2013, 04:36:14 AM »
Or like this?