Author Topic: M113 Family of Vehicles  (Read 223685 times)

Offline apophenia

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Offline Weaver

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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #151 on: March 04, 2014, 05:02:12 AM »
Nice one Jeff and Apo!

Now all I have to do is work out what to do with it now..... ???
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #152 on: March 04, 2014, 10:50:52 AM »
Carefullly slice the hatch off, drill a hole in it's place and build an optronics mast and use it as it's intended to be used - an artillery observation vehicle!  Simples!

Offline Weaver

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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #153 on: March 04, 2014, 11:12:51 AM »
Yes, but it's too small (about 1/100th is the best guess) so it doesn't go with any of my other vehicle stuff.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #154 on: March 04, 2014, 02:16:29 PM »
3D scanner / printer? 8)

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #155 on: March 04, 2014, 05:23:14 PM »
Yes, but it's too small (about 1/100th is the best guess) so it doesn't go with any of my other vehicle stuff.

Designed to go on a Roco Minitanks hull perhaps?

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #156 on: March 04, 2014, 06:48:11 PM »
Yes, but it's too small (about 1/100th is the best guess) so it doesn't go with any of my other vehicle stuff.

Make it a UGV
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline Weaver

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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #157 on: April 02, 2014, 02:28:12 AM »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #158 on: April 02, 2014, 02:53:00 AM »
Damn!  Why can't it be 1/35??
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #159 on: April 02, 2014, 03:03:11 AM »
LOL - if there's been someone here to have a bet with, I'd just have won it...... 8)

It's in the correct scale: what more could any sane person want?
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #160 on: April 02, 2014, 03:39:30 AM »
Damn!  Why can't it be 1/35??
Aside from the Verlinden interpretation of that turret and gun combination in 1:35th scale there is a guy by the name of Greg Buechler making turned metal barrels on Missing-Lynx forums to sell. 

Missing Lynx Forums - IMI 60mm update
PhotoBucket Image Gallery - Sherman with 60mm HVMS

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Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #161 on: April 02, 2014, 04:44:47 AM »
Forget the M113 that just belongs on a Marder or a Scopion! Intact I could see it on any one of a range of different AFVs ;D

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #162 on: April 02, 2014, 08:42:38 AM »
Forget the M113 that just belongs on a Marder or a Scopion! Intact I could see it on any one of a range of different AFVs ;D

Probably too small for a Scorpion, but a Marder, Warrior or Bradley would be right on the money. IIRC, there was a proposal back in the 1960s to fit the Marder with a Bofors 57mm.

Since the 60mm has primarily been marketed as a refit/upgrade system, you might also imagine the turret on a BMP-2, PT-76, or Chaffee. It would also go on a LAV/Striker or a Luchs armoured car.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #163 on: April 02, 2014, 04:28:47 PM »
Damn!  Why can't it be 1/35??
Aside from the Verlinden interpretation of that turret and gun combination in 1:35th scale there is a guy by the name of Greg Buechler making turned metal barrels on Missing-Lynx forums to sell. 

Missing Lynx Forums - IMI 60mm update
PhotoBucket Image Gallery - Sherman with 60mm HVMS


Thanks Jeff - will contact him.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #164 on: April 02, 2014, 04:29:33 PM »
LOL - if there's been someone here to have a bet with, I'd just have won it...... 8)

It's in the correct scale: what more could any sane person want?

Yeah, yeah...don't make me bring you into line. :icon_punal:
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #165 on: April 04, 2014, 03:44:02 PM »
Forget the M113 that just belongs on a Marder or a Scopion! Intact I could see it on any one of a range of different AFVs ;D

Probably too small for a Scorpion, but a Marder, Warrior or Bradley would be right on the money. IIRC, there was a proposal back in the 1960s to fit the Marder with a Bofors 57mm.

MMm, yes and no.  That was part of the experimentation undertaken by the Germans when they were looking at those weird fixed casement versions of the Leopard I and II armed with twin guns.

The Marder variant was intended to act as an "escort" vehicle, which foresaw several assigned to protect the flanks and rear of the casement MBT.  It was quite an interesting revision in some ways back to Basil Liddel-Hart's 1920-30s writing on mechanised warfare which likened it to naval warfare.

The trials were carried out with a Bofors 57mm AA gun which was placed inverted in a new turret on top of the Marder, which was also armed with twin TOW launchers IIRC.  The 57mm suffered feed problems which were never worked out and the whole concept fell to pieces when the normal Leopard II with its turret entered service.


« Last Edit: April 04, 2014, 03:45:36 PM by Rickshaw »

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #166 on: April 05, 2014, 02:58:27 AM »

The trials were carried out with a Bofors 57mm AA gun which was placed inverted in a new turret on top of the Marder, which was also armed with twin TOW launchers IIRC. 


That would be this one:




See more here

There was this version of the Dardo IFV with a OTO Melara 60mm HVMS gun (this was derived from the jointly designed Otobreda and IMI self-loading 60mm HVMS 60 (High-Velocity Medium-Support) gun - the gun on the Chilean tanks is the IMI version of the same).

« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 03:23:41 AM by GTX_Admin »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #167 on: April 05, 2014, 12:51:58 PM »
Yes, Greg, thats the one.  There was also another version, armed IIRC a 40mm Bofors gun and a HOT launcher for comparison.

Offline apophenia

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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #168 on: April 05, 2014, 03:44:38 PM »
There was also another version, armed IIRC a 40mm Bofors gun and a HOT launcher for comparison.

Oooo, that's a new one to me. Any details on this 40mm Begleitpanzer?
Froglord: "... amphibious doom descends ... approach the alter and swear your allegiance to the swamp."

Offline Volkodav

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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #169 on: April 11, 2014, 08:00:55 PM »
A 35mm would have made sense too for commonality with the Gepard.

Back onto the M-113. 

I have been thinking about the botched Australian upgrade and what could have been achieved instead for less money while delivering improved capability. 
  • Buy a MOTS add on armour package,
    replace the existing engine with the uprated turbo charged version of the Detroit 6V-53T used in the ASLAV FOV,
    upgrade transmission, transfer case and differential,
    fit external armoured fuel tanks,
    fit spall liners,
    fit water chiller,
    RCWS to replace turrets in most versions,
    Deloc 25mm turret (as manufactured in Australia for ASLAV25) for DFS version,
    NEMO turret for IDFS version,
    ADATS for 16 AD Regiment (part of 1 Bde when upgrade started so mech AD makes sense),
    Heavy DFS/ AT with 105mm turrets gun or and Australian designed Turret with a 76mm Oto Melara gun (like the RooiKat).

Just an idea but most of this could have been done quite easily with the vehicles entering service a decade earlier than what really happened, delivering greater capability, improved reliability at a reduced cost of acquisition and ownership, compared to what the ADF is currently lumbered with.  An interesting twist would be to assume Australia accepted the German offer for upgraded Marders during the 90s so that the M-113s could be used en-mass by the Cavalry, Regular and Reserve and then the turrets used on the M-113 FOV could be used on the upgraded Marders too.  ;D



Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #170 on: April 11, 2014, 09:03:02 PM »
Unfortunately what has killed the M113AS1/2/3/4 was the end user being seduced by the contractor.  It was a case of, "Well, we can add this, if you spend a little more money..." and of course we then had project creep setting in.

Didn't help that they decided to actually rebuild the APCs in a complete arse-about fashion.  I worked for the company that had the contract for the CNC milling machine for the hulls, so I had a chance to have a bit of a crawl around looking at how they were doing it.  Instead of simply either cutting and splicing two hulls to make one or even just purchasing complete new hulls from FMC, they decided to cut each hull and splice in a short section of manufactured flat plates to match the hull contours.  I simply cannot imagine why they did that way, considering the problems encountered overseas with aluminium welds cracking in AFV hulls after a bit of pounding.   It meant that each hull was bespoke and took considerably more time to produce.  Our machine basically machined the suspension holes in the hull and made sure they were all perfectly aligned.  Having seen some of the cracks they had in the donor hulls, I'm surprised they even bothered.

The M113AS1/2/3/4 started out as quite a sensible, low budget upgrade but grew like topsy.  Loads of guilt as to why it happened to share around, from poor project management through to contractors rubbing their hands with glee as the moneypot they believed they had access to.  In the end, it would have been easier and cheaper to just junk the lot and buy new.  :-\

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #171 on: April 11, 2014, 11:17:30 PM »
Worked with a couple of different people who were on that project and more recently who are in the ADF an use the stupid things, no one has anything nice to say about it.

They should have kept it simple and modular, not even bothered lengthening, just freed up space with external fuel tanks and a RCWS in place of the turret on the actual carrier versions.

Offline Gingie

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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #172 on: April 12, 2014, 12:39:23 AM »


Back onto the M-113....Deloc 25mm turret (as manufactured in Australia for ASLAV25) for DFS version,


Totally plausible:


Offline Volkodav

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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #173 on: April 12, 2014, 03:37:55 AM »
Yes totally that why I put it in.  I actually had been on the short list to be the receiving inspection supervisor at the GDLS factory that manufactures that turret and had to withdraw, biggest misstate of my life, delayed me getting into defence by five years and ironically I ended up working with the man who would have been my boss and was to have interviewed me a few years later.  I can't say if it would have got me the job but I got on very well with him and he was an ex RAN FAA Tracker maintainer and I know my FAA types aircraft, ships and history  ;).  Spent hours talking about armour, aviation and the RAN over the time working together.

Another bloke there had been an engineer on the selected AS3/4 .50cal turret and told me the issues with that.  I haven't heard anything about those issues in service so they either fixed the problem or haven't fired enough rounds to cause the failure mode identified  :(.  Worked with the senior structural engineer form the project at another place and heard all about the delamination as well as the cracking issue with the current hulls.  Apparently the add on armour is great the issue was the poor condition of the original hulls (fixed at great expense) and the drive train (a current neighbour who has driven them say they are still crap.

I used to drive the original A1 pre-mod when in uniform (not taking an offer to go reg is another big regret) and all they needed was a better engine (plus upgraded transfer case, trans and diff to cope), protection and track.  Keep the weight down and the original suspension would have been fine.  An RCS and external tanks would have fixed this volume issues and the support versions wouldn't have had vegies in the back so there was plenty of space anyway.  My list was simply a list of MOTS options to fill a variety of roles that a zero timed fleet could have filled. We started with, from memory over a thousand of them and ended up with 4-500 over a decade later with the reserve stripped of all vehicles, not a good result.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #174 on: April 12, 2014, 04:06:22 AM »
The basics of the M113AS4 upgrade:



NOTE: This diagram is representational only, it does not include Government furnished equipment reclaimed from A1 vehicles or manufactured items under the Commercial Support Program Contract.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.