U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB Inspiration

[Brian da Basher]

Had the United States been drawn into World War 2 in January 1940 (as an example), it would have been fighting with a whole different set of equipment than what is familiar to us. 

For example, the US Army Air Corps' (as it was then) top bomber was the B-18 Bolo with 345 in inventory (compared to 53 early-model B-17s).  Their top fighter was the Curtiss P-36 (211 on hand), supplemented by 66 Seversky P-35s and 81 Boeing P-26s; there were only 31 early P-40s (and obviously no P-51s, P-47s, P-38s, or P-39s.  There were 128 Northrop A-17 attack aircraft, supplemented by a bunch of prototypes and obsolete types.  And, there were a boatload of observation types: Douglas O-43 and O-46 and North American O-47, among others. 

The Navy included only 6 aircraft carriers (Langley, Lexington, Saratoga, Ranger, Yorktown and Enterprise) and was still very much a battleship-based Navy.  Aircraft on the decks of those carriers in January 1940 would have included Grumman F3F (new at the time) and F2F, as well as Great Lakes TG-2 and BG-2, with the Douglas TBD and Vought SB2U being the most modern aircraft on US carrier decks.

On the Army side, the M2 medium tank was just beginning to reach units, with the M2 Light Tank being still standard: the M3 Grant/Lee and the M4 Sherman would start to enter units in the second half of 1940.

     

[The Big Gimper]

Brian:

Would you accept an impressed Northrop Gamma 2A?  The modified design would fall between the original Gamma 2A and YA-13.

[Acree]

Of course!  Especially since in real life at least 3 Gammas were impressed into US Army service (the UC-100 in the USAAF and at least two Gamma 2Ds with the Army Corps of Engineers).  And I'm really looking forward to it since the Gamma is one of my favorites!

[The Big Gimper]

Thanks Brian. Completely unaware of the UC-100 designation.

Joe Baugher to the rescue: http://www.joebaugher.com/ustransports/cdesig.html

[The Big Gimper]

+ =? (Mohahahaha!)

Just the skis Brian.

[Volkodav]

If the US entered the war early, say in late 39 or early 40, would there even be an M-3 Lee/Grant, M-4 Sherman, P-51 Mustang etc. as we know it? Being able to continue R&D while getting up to date intelligence from the Brits gave the US a real edge, and edge they may not have had if they had joined the war and been forced to mobilise with what they had in production or under development.

May be when the Brits went to the US with their list of equipment they wanted the US to manufacture, the desperation of equipping a rapidly expanding military could have seen them licence produce much more UK equipment as they no longer had the time to perfect their own solutions.  On thought that comes to mind is US mass produces the M-2 Medium but then replaces it with a licence built, evolved Matilda medium tank with a GM diesel and a 6pdr / 57mm in a Churchill like turret, instead of the M-3, eventually replacing it with something like the M-4, but different, based on the Matilda experience.

Licence produced but improved Spitfires instead of Mustang, say something sort of in between a later Merlin Spitfire and a Spiteful.

[Brian da Basher]

You've got my number, Carl!

The main thing I'd like to build is this wonderful kit lurking in the pile:



I know, a B-17, how obvious, but they didn't have this version when I was a lad and it's one of my favorites ever since I caught the film Air Force.

Other ideas are updated or backdated P-6s, P-26s, F11Cs, Dauntlesses, and Devastators. Yum!

Brian da Basher

P.S. Mr Gimper I also have plans for Canadian P-36 & 2-seat P-36 attack version but those may be outside the scope of this GB.

[The Big Gimper]

I know your number is "P-36". That is why I chose this kit.

[GTX_Admin]

Hmmm...US enters war early...maybe a US Expeditionary Force in France alongside the BEF...would they have made a difference either on the battlefield or even in Hitler reconsidering invasion of France and the low countries or would history still repeat itself and in fact experience causes US to back away from European War even more so?  Hmmm.... possibilities.

[GTX_Admin]

M2 Light Tanks vs Panzer Is, IIs, IIIs and IVs....hmmm

[Acree]

Another interesting point (for the aircraft guys, at least) is that, in 1940, the USAAC was still planning to use water-based temporary camouflage.  See pictures of P-35s and other aircraft during the 1940 wargames for interesting examples.  Olive drab over neutral gray came along as standard camouflage in mid-1941.  Until then, combat aircraft were bare metal with the expectation of being painted in water colors as needed.  So, if America went to war in 1940, what would her fighters and bombers worn to the dance?  Wide open to interpretation!

[elmayerle]

I suspect experience would soon force them to develop camouflage schemes, probably starting from British or French schemes and then developing their own as experience accumulated.

[elmayerle]

I wonder how quickly the force of war would force the evolution of the A-17 and/or BT-1 toward the SBD and beyond?  The basics are all there, just need bringing out.

Odd thought:  Depending on when the US joined the war, would Jack Northrop leave his company co-owned by Douglas, which became the El Segundo Division of Douglas, to start one that was all his, or would he stay with that company?

[ChernayaAkula]

I have a Hobby Boss MiG-3 that - I think - would look good in US colours..... 

Another interesting point (for the aircraft guys, at least) is that, in 1940, the USAAC was still planning to use water-based temporary camouflage.  See pictures of P-35s and other aircraft during the 1940 wargames for interesting examples.  Olive drab over neutral gray came along as standard camouflage in mid-1941.  Until then, combat aircraft were bare metal with the expectation of being painted in water colors as needed.  So, if America went to war in 1940, what would her fighters and bombers worn to the dance?  Wide open to interpretation!

Seeing the topic of the GB, I immediately thought of these. 

[jcf]

I wonder how quickly the force of war would force the evolution of the A-17 and/or BT-1 toward the SBD and beyond?  The basics are all there, just need bringing out.

Odd thought:  Depending on when the US joined the war, would Jack Northrop leave his company co-owned by Douglas, which became the El Segundo Division of Douglas, to start one that was all his, or would he stay with that company?

SBD development was begun in 1936 when a modified BT-1 with a fully-retractable main
landing gear was ordered as the XBT-2, first flight 22 April, 1938. After testing at Langley,
starting in February 1939, the NACA made a number of recommendations, the majority of
which were incorporated by modifying the XBT-2 making it representative of the SBD which
was ordered into production on 8 April, 1939.

The Northrop Company became Douglas El Segundo in 1937.

The US becoming involved in 1939 is extremely unlikely, 1940 is a major stretch and if it
did, most likely only after the invasion of the Low Countries and France. No way in hell
during the Phony War period as it was simply not in the best interests of the US to become
involved. You'd need to have one hell of a casus belli to change that and a Lusitania redux
type event wouldn't do the job, especially as the cynical manipulation of public opinion in that
case was well known by 1939.

The switch to permanent camouflage of Olive Drab over Neutral Gray happened in 1940,
the scheme had been decided on early in the year and as of March Hap Arnold had already
negotiated with Curtiss the delivery of P-40s in the new scheme, ditto Douglas A-20As.
The French took delivery of their first DB-7s in 1939.

My be when the Brits went to the US with their list of equipment they wanted the US to manufacture, the desperation of equipping a rapidly expanding military could have seen them licence produce much more UK equipment as they no longer had the time to perfect their own solutions.  On though that comes to mind is US mass produces the M-2 Medium but then replaces it with a licence built, evolved Matilda medium tank with a GM diesel and a 6pdr / 57mm in a Churchill like turret, instead of the M-3, eventually replacing it with something like the M-4, but different, based on the Matilda experience.

Yeah, "Hey guys instead of building your own crap why don't you build our crap".   

[Volkodav]

Yeah, "Hey guys instead of building your own crap why don't you build our crap".   

Exactly, except the Matilda was better crap than the M-2 and probably capable of being engineered into something better than the M-3, pending the introduction of the Sherman.  The Matilda was proposed for production in the US and the GM 6046 was originally sketched up to power the US built Matilda. Just cherry picking facts to fit my personal agenda 

[Acree]

The switch to permanent camouflage of Olive Drab over Neutral Gray happened in 1940,
the scheme had been decided on early in the year and as of March Hap Arnold had already
negotiated with Curtiss the delivery of P-40s in the new scheme, ditto Douglas A-20As.
The French took delivery of their first DB-7s in 1939.

My apologies - I got the date of permanent camo wrong from memory.  Doesn't change the point I was making, though.

Yes, this GB requires a bit of suspension of disbelief, but, see Rule #1. 

I CAN imagine a lot of different triggers for bringing the US into the war earlier, but just as you said, it would have been very bad, and it would have required a really serious offense - greater than a ship sinking or two.  But of course, Pearl Harbor did happen - suppose a similar event (by the Japanese or the Germans) happened at the end of 1939.  Honestly, the whole thing is just an excuse to model really cool late-30s planes in combat. 

[Volkodav]

A way to bring the US into the war early could be a failed NAZI sponsored coup in the US.  An attempt is made to seize power, including taking the White House and various government buildings by force, the plan being to either to then enter the war on Germanys side, or enforce US neutrality.

I thought about suggesting the coup succeeds and the US joins the war early, on the other side, but then thought a violent backlash more likely followed by righteous rage against Germany.

[jcf]

Brian:

Would you accept an impressed Northrop Gamma 2A?  The modified design would fall between the original Gamma 2A and YA-13.

Gamma 2A - Texaco Sky Chief
Gamma 2B - Ellsworth Polar Star
Gamma 2C - YA-13
Gamma 2D - TWA
Gamma 2E, 2EC, 2ED - 2-place attack bomber - China
Gamma 2F - YA-13 re-engined with R-1830, re-designated as XA-16
Gamma 2G - Cochran with Curtiss Conqueror V-12, later sold to Howard Hughes
Gamma 2H - Guggenheim, FAA records show as 2D-2
Gamma 2J - A-17A modified as demonstrator for USAAC advanced-trainer competition
Gamma 2L - engineless A-17 sold to British Air Ministry, used by Bristol for engine testing
Gamma 3A - USAAC fighter design, test designation XP-948, design sold to Vought
Gamma 5A - Gamma 2E, Wright Cyclone, two-place layout, exported to IJN 1935
Gamma 5B - semi-militarized Gamma, two enclosed cockpits fwd, slimmer aft fuselage, Spanish Republican
Gamma 5D - semi-militarized Gamma, two cockpits fwd - open or closed, exported to IJN
Gamma 7A - unbuilt twin-engine design, eventually led to Douglas DB-7 series
Gamma 8A - Douglas continuation of A-17/A-17A types, some models had a belly gun position


The profile identified as the 2F in the following drawing isn't the 2F.


Some Gamma armament schemes from Justo Miranda, I don't how real these are:

[jcf]

Honestly, the whole thing is just an excuse to model really cool late-30s planes in combat.

Combat where? Germany had no ability to project air-power across the Atlantic, the only US force
capable of that at the time was the USN.

Japan being involved that early is incredibly unlikely as they had no reason to become involved at that
time, China was their focus in 1939-40.

Late-30s planes in combat basically describes the first three years of the war, hell the Germans
and Brits were still using primarily late '30s designs in 1945.

[Volkodav]

Late-30s planes in combat basically describes the first three years of the war, hell the Germans
and Brits were still using primarily late '30s designs in 1945.

Hence my two cents about early entry into the war curtailing R&D on better stuff in favour of thought to be good enough stuff that was in production or would be ready sooner.

The real impact of this was seen on ships, the US had a longer window to develop post treaty designs, while their war emergency destroyers and carriers were based on larger, better balanced designs. The North Carolina Class BBs were designed with 14" guns but received 16", the corresponding King George V class were too urgent to reorder with 16", the South Dakotas were ordered and completed, while the two Lions actually laid down were suspended and broken up as resources were more urgently needed for building escorts etc.  Four out of six Iowas were completed to a post treaty design, while the single Vanguard was completed post war to a modified treaty design and wouldn't have happened at all if not for the availability of surplus main armament.  The Montana class was cancelled because carriers were the priority, but if the US had entered the war early its easy to imagine the Iowas would have been cancelled too and possibly the South Dakots suspended while additional Yorktowns were built instead of Essex class.

Another example of what happens to new generations of equipment when major wars start, the UK was in the process of developing the .276 Enfield to replace .303 following their experiences in the Boer War, this was suspended in 1914 with the onset of WWI.  Again in the late 30s the UK planned to change from to geriatric .303 rimmed round to a rimless type (likely the 7.9 x 57mm Mauser), and again the onset of war prevented this.

[The Big Gimper]

Thank you Jon for the gratuitous goods on the Gamma.

[perttime]

(Wikipedia images)

[LemonJello]

So, how about a WWII version of the Zimmerman Telegram that entices Mexico into the Axis  and therefore pulls the US into the war with a much closer to home threat to deal with?

Large shipments of "agricultural machinery" from Germany puts Panzers on the Rio Grande? Desert warfare in the American southwest? Naval battles in the Caribbean and Gulf of Mexico?

[elmayerle]

So, how about a WWII version of the Zimmerman Telegram that entices Mexico into the Axis  and therefore pulls the US into the war with a much closer to home threat to deal with?

Large shipments of "agricultural machinery" from Germany puts Panzers on the Rio Grande? Desert warfare in the American southwest? Naval battles in the Caribbean and Gulf of Mexico?

Reminds me an AU novel, Operation Shatterhand by Jake Page that ends with the indians in the American Southwest suddenly acquiring a lot of "slightly used" German hardware after the defeat of the German attack.