Author Topic: 'might have beens' ... Finland  (Read 14043 times)

Offline tsrjoe

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'might have beens' ... Finland
« on: September 07, 2013, 01:19:13 AM »
ok here goes for starters ... please note those listed below are not in any particular order or time frame but were all SERIOUS evaluations for which there is SUPPORTING references  :)

 ... inspired by my recent trip to the Helsinki Air Museum and Lappeenranta airshow, sifting through some of the reference material i aquired provides some interesting 'what if' alternatives to equipment operated by the Finnish air Force ...

1940     official request 27-33 ariframes,
Supermarine Spitfire Mk.1 (A batch of Gloster built Hurricanes delivered)

1952     unofficial request,
Saab J.29 Tunnan         

1954     unofficial evaluation,
MiG. 15                         

1956     Air Defence Aircraft evaluation,
Dassault Mystere IV, Hawker Hunter F.4, MiG 17, Saab J.32 Lansen (Hunter was favoured type but Gnat F.1 purchased due to low unit cost)

1958     Primary Training Aircraft evaluation,
Hunting Jet Provost, Miles Student (Fouga Magister purchased due to favourable licencing agreements)

1960     procurement evaluation,
MiG. 19S (purchase not taken up)

1961     Multi Role/Air Defence Aircraft evaluation,
Dassault Mirage IIIC (Mirage was favoured type but Saab J.35F Draken purchased due political neutrality)

1975     Multi Role/Air Defence Aircraft (MiG. 21F replacement) evaluation,
MiG. 23MS, Sukhoi Su.20 (MiG 21bis was purchased due to the types low cost and commonality with the MiG 21F)

>1990c    NG. Fighter Aircraft (MiG. 21bis/J.35F replacement) evaluation,
Saab JAS.39 Gripen, GD. F.16C Fighting Falcon, MiG. 29 Fulcrum, Sukhoi Su.27 Flanker (MiG. 29 was expected to be the chosen type, but F.18 Hornet purchased due to proposed offset arrangements and higher specification)

>2000c   Assault Helicopter (Mi.8 replacement) evaluation,
EHI. EH.101 Merlin (Eurocopter NH.90 chosen due to favourable purchase cost and offset arrangements)

>2020   Hornet Replacement,
Lockheed F.35 Lightning, Saab Gripen NG.

... i will keep scanning through the references and add to this post when i come across any others... please feel free to augment the listing if you find any iv missed !

Offline tsrjoe

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2013, 01:29:13 AM »
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=172747&start=165

a few really interesting types mentioned most of which would make for really neat models or profiles ... Finnish HP.42 Heracles anyone ?

cheers, joe  8)

Offline tsrjoe

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2013, 01:33:38 AM »
ordered and evaluated Ilmavoimat aircraft ...

1930’s    Junkers Ju.86, HP. Hampden, Fairey Battle, He.111 and Bristol 142 looked at as potential bomber purchases

1930’s    He.112B.1, Fiat CR.42, Boeing P.12E Peashooter looked at as potential fighter purchases (the CR.42 was one of the types Sweden intended to send to assist Finland during the Winter War!)

1940     Official request 27-33 Supermarine Spitfire Mk.1 (A batch of Gloster built Hurricanes delivered) also Lockheed Hudson and Blackburn Roc/Skua requested

1940’s   Request for Do.217 nightfighters and Ju.87 Stuka bombers
            Request for He.111 and DFS. troop carrying gliders

1952     unofficial request, Saab J.29 Tunnan         

1954     unofficial evaluation, MiG. 15 

1950’s   Jet Trainer evaluation, Vampire T.11, MiG.15UTI, the former being chosen as the Vampire was in service                         

1956     Air Defence Aircraft evaluation, Dassault Mystere IV, Hawker Hunter F.4, MiG.15bis, MiG. 17, Saab J.32 Lansen (Hunter was favoured type but Gnat F.1 purchased due to low unit cost)

1958     Primary Training Aircraft evaluation, Valmet Tuuli III, Piaggo P.149D, Saab 91 Safir, the latter being chosen as most suitable

1958     Training Aircraft evaluation, Hunting Jet Provost, Miles Student, Fouga Magister (the Fouga being purchased due to favourable licencing agreements)

1960     procurement evaluation, MiG. 19S (purchase not taken up)

1961     Multi Role/Air Defence Aircraft evaluation, Dassault Mirage IIIC, Saab J.35XS, MiG.21M, Northrop F.5A Freedom Fighter (the Mirage was favoured type but Saab J.35F Draken purchased due political neutrality)

1970’s   Unsolicited proposal by HSA. for the Harrier GR.1

1970’s   Light Transport, Beechcraft King Air (not procured)

1975     Multi Role/Air Defence Aircraft (MiG. 21F replacement) evaluation, MiG. 23MS, Sukhoi Su.20 (MiG 21bis was purchased due to the types low cost and commonality with the MiG 21F)

1970’s   Jet trainer evaluation, HSA. Hawk, DB. Alpha Jet, Saab 105XS, Aero L.39, Aermacchi MB.339, the Hawk being the selected type

1980’s   Liaison Aircraft evaluation (Piper Arrow replacement), Piper Malibu, Beechcraft A36 Bonanza, Cessna 208 Caravan, the Caravan being favoured although the Valmet L.90 Redigo was chosen in a political decision

1980    Transport Aircraft evaluation, CASA. C.212, DeHavilland DHC.5 Buffalo, Antonov An.26, a further Fokker F.27 was purchased to augment the existing service fleet

1980’s  Target towing/Mapping Aircraft replacement, Cessna Citation II, Sabreliner 75A, Sabreliner 65, Falcon 20F, Learjet 35A, the Falcon and Sabreliner being favoured although the Learjet was chosen on price

1992    NG. Fighter Aircraft (MiG. 21bis/J.35F replacement) evaluation,
Saab JAS.39 Gripen, GD. F.16C Fighting Falcon, MiG. 29 Fulcrum, Sukhoi Su.27 Flanker, MDD/NG. F/A.18 Hornet (MiG. 29 was expected to be the chosen type, but F.18 Hornet purchased due to offset arrangements and higher specification)

2005    Transport Aircraft evaluation, Alenia C.27J Spartan, EADS. CASA. C.295M, the latter being selected

2000c   Assault Helicopter (Mi.8 replacement) evaluation, EHI. EH.101 Merlin (Eurocopter NH.90 chosen due to favourable purchase cost and offset arrangements)

2000’s  Future Liaison Aircraft evaluation, Pilatus PC.12, Beechcraft Super King Air UC.12M (Pilatus PC.12 chosen as being most suitable type)

2000’s  Attack Helicopter proposal, Boeing AH.64D Apache, Eurocopter Tiger (it has been noted the Apache is favoured by the Maavoimat)

2000's  Special Duties (F.27 FF-1 replacement) CASA. C.295 conversion

2020's? Hornet Replacement, Lockheed F.35A Lightning, Saab Gripen NG

Offline elmayerle

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2013, 01:37:57 AM »
Wonder how a CR.42DB would look in Swedish or Finnish markings?  Perhaps in winter camoflage with skis?

Second question, any evidence that Finnland every evaluated the Harrier for any particular role?

Offline perttime

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2013, 03:12:40 AM »
November 1939: Finnish Embassy in Washington DC investigated the possibility to purchase Grumman F4F Wildcat, Seversky EP-1 or Brewster F2A "Buffalo".  The Grumman and Seversky were not readily available. 44 Brewster Model 239s were purchased.

1942-1943, Germany offered 22 captured MiG-3 aircraft. They were destroyed in an air raid before they could be delivered.

from Finnish Wikipedia:
http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suomen_ilmavoimien_h%C3%A4vitt%C3%A4j%C3%A4hankinnat_1940%E2%80%931944
http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suomen_ilmavoimien_h%C3%A4vitt%C3%A4j%C3%A4hankinnat

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2013, 04:52:52 AM »
Lots of fuel for the  Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda GB!  There is still time folks!!!
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2013, 06:03:46 AM »
How about we make Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda an open ended build with monthly or quarterly comps.  Its just too much fun to see it end now, especially with gems of ideas and concepts like this research from tsrjoe coming through.

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2013, 01:43:49 AM »
 Agree.
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Offline upnorth

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2013, 04:38:09 AM »
How about Sukhoi Su-24 Fencers for maritime strike and recce?
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Offline perttime

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2013, 04:46:44 PM »
From 1947 to 1990, an aircraft primarily designed for hitting ground targets is pretty much out of the question - unless you go for Alternative History.

Among other things, the 1947 Paris Peace Treaty banned Bomber aircraft, and purchases of ANY aircraft or aircraft parts originating in Germany or Japan. The number of combat aircraft was limited to 60.
After the re-unification of Germany in 1990, Finland unilaterally declared void the restrictions on military capability. Nobody objected...

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2013, 12:43:17 AM »
How about we make Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda an open ended build with monthly or quarterly comps.  Its just too much fun to see it end now, especially with gems of ideas and concepts like this research from tsrjoe coming through.

It's an idea but first let's finish the existing GB (last week folks!!!).
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Offline Geoff

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2013, 02:09:10 AM »
I seem to remember a conversation where the Finns wanted Hudsons, any validity in that joe??

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2013, 02:31:40 AM »
What restrictions/permissions did Finland have regarding airborne reconniassance?
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Offline tsrjoe

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2013, 03:54:27 AM »
1939/40 the Finnish attache to the UK. enquired as to the avaliability of varius aircraft types such as the Spitfire, Hurricane, Hudson, Roc/Skua, Lysander, Blenhiem, Battle and Hampden (interestingly the Wellington did not seem to be mentioned in the files iv seen here altho is noted in another source ?)

the Hurricane, Blenhiem, Lysander and Roc/Skua were all sanctioned for release and sale to Finland, however the Spitfire and Hudson were not due to (stated) 'limited numbers of the types in RAF. service' (and i assume the latter being a US. sourced type)

the discussed Battle and Hampden were deemed obselescent and thus unsuitable

... however an RAF. Hudson did accompany the Finnish Hurricanes across the North Sea on their delivery flight :)
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 03:56:24 AM by tsrjoe »

Offline tsrjoe

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2013, 04:06:37 AM »
im sure someone out there can answer the legal aspect of reconaissance restrictions re the Ilmavoimat, however post war the Finnish Air Force have operated a number of types in the photographic/mapping role ...

1940's Do.17, Blenhiem
1950's/60's Vampire, Pembroke, DC.3
1970's/80's DC.3, IL.28
1990's/00's DC.3, F.27(FF-1) Learjet

the SIGINT/ELINT. equipped Fokker Friendship (FF-1) is due to be replaced in the near future by CASA C.295 (CC-1) possibly with Israeli sourced fitout ?

Offline Geoff

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2013, 04:08:09 AM »
Thanks

Offline elmayerle

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2013, 06:15:21 AM »
im sure someone out there can answer the legal aspect of reconaissance restrictions re the Ilmavoimat, however post war the Finnish Air Force have operated a number of types in the photographic/mapping role ...

1940's Do.17, Blenhiem
1950's/60's Vampire, Pembroke, DC.3
1970's/80's DC.3, IL.28
1990's/00's DC.3, F.27(FF-1) Learjet

the SIGINT/ELINT. equipped Fokker Friendship (FF-1) is due to be replaced in the near future by CASA C.295 (CC-1) possibly with Israeli sourced fitout ?

Please note that the Finnish Learjets are fitted with ESM gear, too.  These are most evident in the bulged tailcone and in antennae flush-mounted in each tip tank.

Offline perttime

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2013, 02:18:08 PM »
There were no restrictions on recce capabilities.

... what I posted about the bomber ban was based on what was constantly said in the media. I just looked up the Finnish translation of the 1947 Paris Peace Treaty, and the wording doesn't say exactly what I said before.

http://www.finlex.fi/fi/sopimukset/sopsteksti/1947/19470020
"Suomi älköön pitäkö tai hankkiko lentokoneita, jotka ovat suunnitellut ensisijassa pommituskoneiksi sisäpuolisin pomminkuljetuslaittein."
My translation:
"Finland shall not keep or acquire aircraft that are primarily designed as bombers, with internal bomb transportation equipment".

The number of combat aircraft and men in the air force was limited
Tonnage and number of men in the navy was also limited. Submarines, Motor Torpedo Boats and "special assault vessels" were banned, as well as self-propelled or guided munitions except for torpedoes that are commonly used on permitted types of vessels.


Offline upnorth

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2013, 02:52:53 PM »

"Finland shall not keep or acquire aircraft that are primarily designed as bombers, with internal bomb transportation equipment".



So, given the fact that it doesn't have a weapons bay, this could still keep the Su-24 in the running for Finn service so long as it was limited to things like recce and anti-shipping and not  dropping iron?
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Offline perttime

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2013, 04:49:29 PM »
"Finland shall not keep or acquire aircraft that are primarily designed as bombers, with internal bomb transportation equipment".


So, given the fact that it doesn't have a weapons bay, this could still keep the Su-24 in the running for Finn service so long as it was limited to things like recce and anti-shipping and not  dropping iron?
Actually... as long as it doesn't have a bomb bay ...
... although it seems that for a time it was interpreted as "as long as it doesn't drop weapons on anything that is on the surface". Not sure where that interpretation came from.

Another consideration is that the total number of Combat Aircraft (interpreted to exclude trainers, transports, etc) was limited to 60.
That is not all that much for a country that has a fair amount of land area and long borders. So... you really want aircraft that can be realistically used in various air-to-air tasks.

Offline upnorth

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2013, 06:30:14 PM »
Sounds like possibly more an F-4 Phantom job then.
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Offline perttime

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2013, 08:50:00 PM »
Second question, any evidence that Finnland every evaluated the Harrier for any particular role?
I doubt it.

I was just browsing some books by Jyrki Laukkanen, flight test engineer and Air Force test pilot from 1969 to 2002. By the time he published his Test Pilot's Diary in 2009 (in Finnish),  he'd flown 153 different aircraft types and doesn't mention the Harrier.  The Harrier is not mentioned in his books on the history of Finnish test flying either.

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2013, 09:12:31 PM »
I like the idea of a Finnish Viggen.

« Last Edit: September 13, 2013, 09:17:53 PM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline perttime

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2013, 10:23:14 PM »
1992    NG. Fighter Aircraft (MiG. 21bis/J.35F replacement) evaluation,
Saab JAS.39 Gripen, GD. F.16C Fighting Falcon, MiG. 29 Fulcrum, Sukhoi Su.27 Flanker, MDD/NG. F/A.18 Hornet (MiG. 29 was expected to be the chosen type, but F.18 Hornet purchased due to offset arrangements and higher specification)
I think... based on Wikipedia article (I don't have the original sources at hand now.)

1988: government authorization to look for replacements. 20 x MiG-29 and 40 x Western aircraft was expected.
1990: request for proposals were sent for Mirage 2000,  F-16, and Gripen. No RFP for MiG 29, and it was dropped from consideration in November.
1991: F/A-18 Hornet was added to the list.
1992: test flights and evaluations, F/A-18 Hornet was selected.

Personally, I think the Gripen had a good chance, except it was a bit wet behind the ears, at the time.

Offline tsrjoe

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2013, 12:17:20 AM »
re Harrier, the Finnish Ilmavoimat did send a delegation upon invite to Switzerland (as did Norway and Denmark) during the types demonstration there, altho as noted no actual test flying by any of the invited nations took place (this being a capability demonstration by HS. Harrier test pilot John Farley)
Switzerland.mpg


According to Hawker files at Brooklands, there was an unsolicited approach by HSA. to Finland re the type at that time and it was noted that altho there 'seems to be an interest ... a purchase is not foreseen (due to) budgetary constraints' the aircraft would have been (within that timescale) the GR.3/1A variant without the extended nose and ESM. tail fitment

pretty tenious i know, there is also a note at Warton re. a brochure and 'detailed information' on the BAC. Jaguar being asked for by Finnish Air Staff, c.1973, again wither an actual interest or merly fact finding is not known

cheers, Joe
« Last Edit: September 15, 2013, 07:57:48 PM by tsrjoe »

Offline tsrjoe

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2013, 03:45:32 AM »
Jyrki's books are a great source of 'might have been' information within their texts, as is the recent Finnish
Vampire mongraph which has a number of very interesting types mentioned too ... Sea Fury, Meteor  8)

il sit down over the weekend and note any to add to the listings

a Finnish friend and i have had a cursory glance through the National Archive Service ("Kansallisarkisto"), a few types mentioned i have previously posted on, eg. P.1 Explorer, http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=1775.msg24932#msg24932
but nothing we could find covering the 'modern' period ! im not sure if this was looking in the wrong areas (possibly, as i am unfamiliar and stil trying to learn the language) or if the material has not been filed as yet ?

I would love to have a looksee through the Valmet/Patria project files tho, there are designs for a jet trainer type (circa 60's and 70's) for which i have a note of its design which i would love to see drawings of to go with the VL. 'jet Vihuri' and Karhumäki KH.1 jet trainer project of the 1950's :) (im also pretty sure the company designers 'must' have sketched slightly more belligerent types too!)  ;)

cheers, Joe
« Last Edit: September 15, 2013, 08:04:25 PM by tsrjoe »

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2016, 08:12:03 AM »
Something for the future:

Quote
Defence Forces Logistics Department Issues Request for Information for the Acquisition of a Hornet Replacement
(Source: Finland Ministry of Defence; issued April 22, 2016)

The Defence Forces Logistics Department has sent a Request for Information for the acquisition of a Hornet replacement to the UK, France, Sweden and US defense administrations. They are asked to forward the Request for Information for future multi-purpose fighters to the appropriate manufacturers in their country.

A Request for information (RFI) precedes the actual purchase. After analyzing the responses to the Request for Information, invitations to tender are issued, and the actual purchase of the aircraft is not made until after that.

The Request for Information aims to collect opinions on what solutions recipients can propose to replace the Hornet's capabilities in the post-2030 security environment. The Request for Information acquires information that is used for detailed planning and budgeting, procurement and purchasing, allowing the refinement of the requirements for the multi-purpose fighters.

The request for information requested budgetary estimates of the cost of the acquisition, the operation and maintenance of the air systems, and the methodology of how they were calculated.

The systems under consideration comprise, in addition to the aircraft themselves, other necessary equipment such as weapons, training equipment, management systems and arrangements necessary for maintenance.

Respondents may also provide solutions that can, for example, include more than one type of aircraft and/or unmanned aerial vehicles, to complement the operational performance of the multi-purpose fighter aircraft.

The information request was sent to the defense administrations of the countries which currently produce such multi-purpose fighter jets and related systems, and which could meet the requirements of Finnish Hornet's performance over the years. The RFI also contains detailed information about the air defense policies and future level of performance. Many of the data as well as the responses to the RFI, are confidential.

The retirement date of the Hornet has been included in the overall schedule. The basic requirement is that the new multi-purpose fighter jets must be in service when the Hornet fleet will have to be decommissioned. The acquisition is very large and complex.

Replies to the RFI have been requested by the end of 2016. The tender for the Hornet replacement solution is due to be issued in 2018, and the award decision is planned in 2021.

At this stage the Air Force does not want to restrict the types of aircraft that can be proposed. For the preparation of the contract, and for the competitive evaluation, it is good to obtain information about a range of aircraft types.

Nevertheless, answers to the Request for Information are expected the following aircraft types: Boeing F-15 and F/A-18E/F; Dassault Rafale; Eurofighter Typhoon; Lockheed Martin F-16 and F-35 and Saab Gripen.

Information is also needed about related training for new systems. For example, instructors must start using the new aircraft -- and training of technical personnel -- is usually provided by the armed forces of the supplier nation. The Air Force is also interested in the early development of the use of these systems, which is usually provided by the manufacturer countries' defense administrations. Thus, at least parts of the replies to the RFIs are likely to come from national defense administrations.

The H-X project calls for the new multipurpose fighter to enter service from 2025. The Hornet’s design life cycle will end by the end of the next decade.

The project “owner” is the commander of the Air Force, the project's technical and commercial preparation is under the responsibility of the Defence Forces Logistics Department, under the material and political guidance of the Ministry of Defence.

For the project’s RFI phase, Air Force Commander Major-General Kim Jäämeri, Ministry of Defence project coordinator Lauri Puranen and Defence Forces Logistics Deputy Director Brigadier-General Kari Renko are familiarizing the representatives of the administrations and manufacturers of the different countries about the Request for Information, its objective and about the project as a whole.

-ends-


Whilst I fully expect the F-35 to be the preferred choice here, I do find the mention of the F-15 as an interesting idea.  Would have been especially interesting to see F-15s in Ilmavoimat service in the '80s...
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 08:13:34 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2016, 09:08:04 AM »
Also interesting that the RFI hasn't been sent to Russia or China...
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Offline perttime

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2016, 03:38:22 PM »
Purchasing a mix of manned fighters and UCAVs was recently mentioned as a possibility, in the news.
I suspect the F-15 may be on the large size for operating from existing facilities. Maybe expensive to operate too?

Offline Kelmola

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2016, 12:42:30 AM »
The only thing working against F-35 is that due to the size of our country, an interceptor would preferably have to be a bit faster, hence Eurofighter or even Silent Eagle could well stay in the running.

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2016, 06:02:06 AM »
The only thing working against F-35 is that due to the size of our country, an interceptor would preferably have to be a bit faster, hence Eurofighter or even Silent Eagle could well stay in the running.

One could go for some dispersible F-35Bs if this sort of thing is a concern...I seriously doubt it will be an issue though.  If you compare performance of existing F/A-18Cs and F-35s you will see theta speed is hardly different.
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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2016, 03:32:05 AM »
New twist...maybe:

Quote
Finland Mulls Investment In Drones Alongside New Fighter Jets
(Source: YLE Finnish Broadcasting Corp.; published April 22, 2016)

Finnish Defence Forces are considering adding drones to its shopping list for new fighter jets. Officials are said to have put out feelers to acquire hardware that could replace Hornets altogether in the next decade. Defence contractors have also been asked to table proposals to boost the aerial power of multi-purpose fighter jets with drones.

Finnish military air power may soon be supplemented by unmanned aicraft - or drones - in the next few decades. Defence Forces Logistics Command has put out a call to fighter jet contractors, asking for proposals to provide new craft to replace the existing fleet of Hornet jets, which are due to be de-commissioned by the start of 2025. That information is to be used to flesh out upcoming competitive tenders.

Contractors are also being asked to provide proposals that would complement the aerial power of multipurpose fighter jets with drones. Such proposals should be credible options in the post-2030 security environment.

The Defence Forces have previously used drones such as Swiss-built Ranger surveillance drones for non-combat missions. They have also acquired Israeli Orbiter surveillance drones. However, drone manufacturers are now being invited to table proposals for armed drones to complement the proposed fighter jet order.
Finland’s priciest acquisition

Last summer Yle ascertained the cost of the fighter jet procurement with the help of officials in the United States and Norway. Norway put the total life cycle cost of new fighter jet acquisitions at an estimated 29 billion euros, with the actual purchase price coming in at less than eight billion euros.

In comparison, Finland’s total annual defence spending is less than three billion euros.

The request for information that Finland sent to defence contractors enquired about more than just the cost of ownership. Suppliers were also asked to provide precise information about weaponry, training equipment, guidance systems as well as service and maintenance programmes.

Potential suppliers have also been asked to itemise usage and maintenance costs as well as to outline how these expenses have been calculated – an important factor, since different countries and manufacturers have different approaches to estimating the cost of owning and operating fighter jets.

The queries were sent to defence administrations in the UK, France, Sweden and the United States, with a request to direct them to fighter jet contractors.

Local Defence Force officials expect responses to their questions by the end of the year. Defence officials have said that they will release price estimates for the combat aircraft acquisition next spring.

Formal tender requests are to be released in 2018 and a final procurement decision is expected in 2021.

-ends-
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Offline Kelmola

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2016, 05:00:14 AM »
That in turn would put the F-35 ahead of the competition, since it's probably the only one that has been designed from the start to work as a drone controller.

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2022, 03:26:22 AM »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline Geoff

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2022, 06:28:40 AM »
I did make one of those

Offline ScranJ51

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #35 on: July 14, 2022, 03:15:31 PM »
I did Mig-29's a while ago:

Finn 29 Pair-1 by David Freeman, on Flickr

Finn 29 Pair-2 by David Freeman, on Flickr

29-319-1 by David Freeman, on Flickr

29-319-2 by David Freeman, on Flickr
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Offline perttime

  • The man has produced a Finnish Napier Heston Fighter...need we say more?
Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #36 on: July 14, 2022, 07:32:38 PM »
MiG-29 was initially considered for replacing MiG-21 Bis in late '80s. When Requsts for Quotations were sent in early 1990, none went for the MiG.

The models look good ... except the serial numbers do not fit the established Finnish pattern.

Offline Geoff

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #37 on: July 14, 2022, 10:07:26 PM »
An old one of mine
« Last Edit: July 14, 2022, 10:09:55 PM by Geoff »

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #38 on: July 15, 2022, 12:57:12 AM »
I like the MiG-29
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Offline M.A.D

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #39 on: July 15, 2022, 08:18:13 PM »
An old one of mine

I always thought the Finn's would have appriciated the MiG-27 or Su-25 for their solidness, their rough-field capability and hard hitting attributes.


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Offline ScranJ51

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #40 on: July 16, 2022, 05:57:00 AM »
The models look good ... except the serial numbers do not fit the established Finnish pattern.

That was noted at the time.

My explanation was that the aircraft came second-hand on short notice, so used modified identity markings when first introduced.


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