Author Topic: de Havilland Hornet/Sea Hornet Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 25698 times)

Offline GTX_Admin

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de Havilland Hornet/Sea Hornet Ideas and Inspiration
« on: December 28, 2011, 04:02:31 AM »
Hi folks,

A thread dedicated to your de Havilland Hornet/Sea Hornet Ideas and Inspiration.

First a question - is this sacrilegious or inspired?



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Greg
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Offline Maverick

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Re: de Havilland Hornet/Sea Hornet Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2011, 07:13:31 AM »
I'd say inspired, but I know someone (not here thankfully) who'd foam at the mouth because of the heresy.

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John
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John

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Re: de Havilland Hornet/Sea Hornet Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2014, 04:39:57 AM »
Breathing life back into an old thread:

What about a jet or turboprop Sea Hornet?
« Last Edit: January 29, 2014, 04:42:25 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Re: de Havilland Hornet/Sea Hornet Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2014, 04:40:29 AM »
Or perhaps a simple nice picture:

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Offline elmayerle

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Re: de Havilland Hornet/Sea Hornet Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2014, 04:46:43 AM »
What about a jet or turboprop Sea Hornet?
How about a pair of late-model TPE331's driving five-bladed props and installed as on the Searingen Merlin/Metro, though possibly with a shorter exhaust duct.

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Re: de Havilland Hornet/Sea Hornet Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2014, 04:57:03 AM »
I was thinking of something earlier given the era.
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: de Havilland Hornet/Sea Hornet Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2014, 07:10:36 AM »
One of my absolute favorite aircraft.

Turbo-propping it though is something I've given some thought to, simple way would be to use the Cavalier Mustang Dart conversion (x2) or the Lycoming T-55.  I think I would also build the aircraft out of metal ---

For appearances though, the Lycoming route is really easy on the eyes.  For an upgraded version, I'd use the engine from a Tucano --
« Last Edit: January 29, 2014, 07:20:24 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline Volkodav

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Re: de Havilland Hornet/Sea Hornet Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2014, 07:32:12 AM »
In my personal wiff world the Sea Hornet entered service secretly in November 1941 and was instrumental in destroying the Japanese fleet in the actions north of Australia in February 1942. :)

Offline elmayerle

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Re: de Havilland Hornet/Sea Hornet Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2014, 09:33:51 AM »
If we're going with a turboprop from an earlier era than the TPE331, especially a version thereof that could match the output of the Merlin, I'd be inclined to go with either T53's (I like T55's, too, but they are rather a step increase in power and I'm not sure how that'd affect handling) which could have a clean installation like that of the T55 (see the OV-1, for example) or, if you want to go earlier still, the Armstorng-Siddeley Mamba in installations similar to that used for flight-testing on a DC-3 (the recent Aviation Classics issue on the DC-3 has a lot of info, including all the various turbine-engine conversions, including one Turbo-Super DC-3).

Offline kitnut617

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Re: de Havilland Hornet/Sea Hornet Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2014, 09:52:05 PM »
The only thing I would say Evan, is that all those you've mentioned are way under-powered for the Hornet.  The Merlins used on the Hornet were 2030 hp each (the P-51H used a Packard built version of it), the TPE331 hardly pushed out 600 hp.  Although one variant of the T53 does come close, 1800 hp

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Re: de Havilland Hornet/Sea Hornet Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2014, 01:45:43 AM »
If you wanted to go for subtlety, how about switching the Merlins for Griffons? It would deffinitely lead to a few double takes.

Appropraitely powered turboprops seem pretty thin on the ground for the Hornet's era. The existing ones are all too weak or so strong they'd rip it to shreds before it could taxi out to the runway.

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Offline kitnut617

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Re: de Havilland Hornet/Sea Hornet Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2014, 02:15:58 AM »
My thoughts about Griffons on a Hornet are the same as for the Mosquito.  De Havilland has a design philosophy for the Mosquito which had the aircraft fitted around the engines used.  When they decided to use Napier Sabres the whole design was enlarge so the engines were in the same style of streamlined nacelles.  Called the DH.101 is was 1.2 times bigger than the DH.98 Mosquite.  Likewise, when they were told they wouldn't get the Sabres but to use Griffons instead, DH just stopped all development of the DH.101 but the work wasn't wasted.  They down-scaled the DH.101 to create the DH.102.  It was still bigger than the DH.98 though.

My feelings are that DH would've done the same to the Hornet if they up-engined it to have Griffons, it would have been a bigger aircraft.

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Re: de Havilland Hornet/Sea Hornet Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2014, 02:26:43 AM »
The only thing I would say Evan, is that all those you've mentioned are way under-powered for the Hornet.  The Merlins used on the Hornet were 2030 hp each (the P-51H used a Packard built version of it), the TPE331 hardly pushed out 600 hp.  Although one variant of the T53 does come close, 1800 hp

Not exactly, the max emergency 5 min only combat power of the Merlin 130/131 on 100 octane 100/150 grade at full boost was 2,090hp at 3,000 rpm with 25 lbs boost at 2,000 feet; with 100 octane 100/130 it was 1,625 hp, 3,000 rpm, +20, 11,000 ft. Medium supercharged 100/130 fuel 1,850 hp, 3,000 rpm, +20, 6,250 ft.

Take-off rating with both 100/130 and 100/150 was 1,670 hp, 3,000 rpm, +18 at sea level.
Maximum continuous climb (rated) power:
medium supercharged 1,430 hp, 2,850 rpm, +12, 11,000 ft.
fully supercharged 1,280 hp, 2,850 rpm, +12, 14,000 ft.

Ratings for the later 134/135 engines were the same and both series were
rated as 1,670 HP engines. Weight was 1,665 lbs.

Figures from Lumsden, British Piston Aero-Engines and Their Aircraft

One has to be very careful quoting aircraft engine horsepower figures, as published max
power figures are often the emergency power output at a specific altitude, which does not
give an accurate view of real engine power ratings. Take-off rating is the most meaningful
figure.

The T53s are about 60% lighter, so the power to weight ratio is superior, even on the lower
power early models.

The weight increase of using Griffons would eat up most of the power increase and in some
parts of the envelope you'd have no power gain so it would be a net loss due to increased
weight.
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: de Havilland Hornet/Sea Hornet Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2014, 02:34:43 AM »
Interesting facts Jon, but even so, the only turbo engine that comes close to those figures is the late version of the T53 at 1800 shp.

Reading the Sharp/Bowyer book on the Mosquito, it says that had the DH.102 been produced it would have been slower than the DH.98, so a lot of truth in what you say.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 02:41:29 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline elmayerle

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Re: de Havilland Hornet/Sea Hornet Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2014, 09:09:42 AM »
The only thing I would say Evan, is that all those you've mentioned are way under-powered for the Hornet.  The Merlins used on the Hornet were 2030 hp each (the P-51H used a Packard built version of it), the TPE331 hardly pushed out 600 hp.  Although one variant of the T53 does come close, 1800 hp
early TPE331s were rated that low, but the TPE331-15 is up to at least 1500 shp and there may be higher-rated versions  (I've not followed it of late).  I remember that the TPE331-10 produced slightly over 1000 shp but had to be flat-rated to 750 shp in the long MU-2 and 650 shp in the short one due to engine-out controllability problems at higher powers.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: de Havilland Hornet/Sea Hornet Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2014, 11:30:43 PM »
The only thing I would say Evan, is that all those you've mentioned are way under-powered for the Hornet.  The Merlins used on the Hornet were 2030 hp each (the P-51H used a Packard built version of it), the TPE331 hardly pushed out 600 hp.  Although one variant of the T53 does come close, 1800 hp
early TPE331s were rated that low, but the TPE331-15 is up to at least 1500 shp and there may be higher-rated versions  (I've not followed it of late).  I remember that the TPE331-10 produced slightly over 1000 shp but had to be flat-rated to 750 shp in the long MU-2 and 650 shp in the short one due to engine-out controllability problems at higher powers.

I see what you mean, I looked into it and the TPE331 line seems to have progressed much the same as the T53 with later variants being much more powerful.  The question I have though, what time-line are we looking at for these later variants ?  From what I can ascertain these more powerful engine variants are quite recent --

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Re: de Havilland Hornet/Sea Hornet Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2014, 12:06:57 AM »
You know me.... ;D  Fabric wings and some dinky 5-piston radial engines exposed out front.   
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: de Havilland Hornet/Sea Hornet Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2014, 10:41:17 AM »
The only thing I would say Evan, is that all those you've mentioned are way under-powered for the Hornet.  The Merlins used on the Hornet were 2030 hp each (the P-51H used a Packard built version of it), the TPE331 hardly pushed out 600 hp.  Although one variant of the T53 does come close, 1800 hp
early TPE331s were rated that low, but the TPE331-15 is up to at least 1500 shp and there may be higher-rated versions  (I've not followed it of late).  I remember that the TPE331-10 produced slightly over 1000 shp but had to be flat-rated to 750 shp in the long MU-2 and 650 shp in the short one due to engine-out controllability problems at higher powers.

I see what you mean, I looked into it and the TPE331 line seems to have progressed much the same as the T53 with later variants being much more powerful.  The question I have though, what time-line are we looking at for these later variants ?  From what I can ascertain these more powerful engine variants are quite recent --
Well, it depends on your definition of recent.  I believe the high-powered TPE331 variants date from the 1980's (the Shorts Tucano has one, if memory serves me correctly).  For a suitable T53, what power did those on the OV-1 have?  That would certainly fit a late-1950's timeframe.  As I said, if you really want to go early, the Mamba installation trialed on a Dakota looks quite sharp.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: de Havilland Hornet/Sea Hornet Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2014, 10:03:16 PM »
The only thing I would say Evan, is that all those you've mentioned are way under-powered for the Hornet.  The Merlins used on the Hornet were 2030 hp each (the P-51H used a Packard built version of it), the TPE331 hardly pushed out 600 hp.  Although one variant of the T53 does come close, 1800 hp
early TPE331s were rated that low, but the TPE331-15 is up to at least 1500 shp and there may be higher-rated versions  (I've not followed it of late).  I remember that the TPE331-10 produced slightly over 1000 shp but had to be flat-rated to 750 shp in the long MU-2 and 650 shp in the short one due to engine-out controllability problems at higher powers.

I see what you mean, I looked into it and the TPE331 line seems to have progressed much the same as the T53 with later variants being much more powerful.  The question I have though, what time-line are we looking at for these later variants ?  From what I can ascertain these more powerful engine variants are quite recent --
Well, it depends on your definition of recent.  I believe the high-powered TPE331 variants date from the 1980's (the Shorts Tucano has one, if memory serves me correctly).  For a suitable T53, what power did those on the OV-1 have?  That would certainly fit a late-1950's timeframe.  As I said, if you really want to go early, the Mamba installation trialed on a Dakota looks quite sharp.

I've just been chatting with Lars Opland about the OV-1 floatplane floats and engine power was something that came up in the conversation.  They had 750 hp Evan, so to me it's a step backwards.  Reading about the Dart though, this engine falls right into the time line, and in 1948-49, it was putting out around 1200-1400 hp.  This would seem to me the engine to go with as a later engines were pumped up to put out 3000 hp.

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Re: de Havilland Hornet/Sea Hornet Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2014, 03:55:07 AM »
Umm, methinks we've got a confusion going on here, the Grumman OV-1A Mohawk used 950hp
T53-L-3 engines, changed to 1,150hp T53-L-7 on the OV-1B and 1,400hp T53-L-701 on the OV-1D

The North American Aviation OV-10A Bronco had 715hp T76-G-410/412 engines, these were
changed to 1,040hp T76-G-420/421 on the OV-10D.

Anyhow, even the lowest powered engine used on the OV-1 was a late-50s engine.


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Offline kitnut617

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Re: de Havilland Hornet/Sea Hornet Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2014, 05:55:42 AM »
Umm, methinks we've got a confusion going on here

D'oh!  ------      :-X

But whatever way, they're still underpowered for the time line I think (I can't see the Hornet being used in the 60's).

Offline Volkodav

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Re: de Havilland Hornet/Sea Hornet Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2014, 07:16:21 AM »
Umm, methinks we've got a confusion going on here

D'oh!  ------      :-X

But whatever way, they're still underpowered for the time line I think (I can't see the Hornet being used in the 60's).

Well the Mustang was, I think it comes down how many there were and who operated them.  i.e. had the Hornet / Sea Hornet been available in numbers before the end of the war in the Pacific you would likely have seen it retained as a replacement for Mosquito, Beaufighter etc post war and gone on to be used in the strike role in Korea as well as or instead of the Mustang with Commonwealth forces. 

Imagine if the USAAF had employed a license produced version as a B-29 escort over Japan in large numbers, or even as a long range fighter bomber from carriers, there would have been large numbers cascaded to smaller air arms around the world into the 60s, French Sea Hornets over Indo China and Algeria anyone?

Offline PR19_Kit

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Re: de Havilland Hornet/Sea Hornet Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2014, 04:48:46 AM »
Using the Hornet anywhere in the near tropics may have been a problem though, as they discovered with the Mosquito in India as the glues used in its construction tended to break down. But it's a great idea nonetheless.  :)
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: de Havilland Hornet/Sea Hornet Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2014, 09:12:15 AM »
Using the Hornet anywhere in the near tropics may have been a problem though, as they discovered with the Mosquito in India as the glues used in its construction tended to break down. But it's a great idea nonetheless.  :)

Essentially the same problem surfaced with the RAAF's Mosquitos.  Delayed their entry into service and prevented them doing very much once they had entered service.   In our case, the metal Beaufighter was the better aircraft.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: de Havilland Hornet/Sea Hornet Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2014, 10:38:11 AM »
Didn't the RAF operate Hornets in Malaya during the "Emergency"? I was aware of the Mosquitoes issues but believe that the Hornet used different adhesives as well as bonded alloy lower wing skins.  Wasn't the Vampire also of mixed metal, plywood construction and operated in the region without major issues?