Author Topic: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities  (Read 34194 times)

Offline Cliffy B

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Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« on: September 29, 2013, 05:31:28 AM »
Hey guys, I'm doing some background research for a project and I need some help.  I'm working on some whiff Kreigsmarine WWII ships, primarily aircraft carrier designs.  Said designs are more akin to CVLs and not full sized fleet CVs.  I've picked those designs simply for production reasons and so it seems, so do the Germans.  Several of them are marked for "commerce warfare/series production".  All have the capacity for about 30 aircraft, 6" guns, full heavy, medium, and light flak outfits and CL size armor.

Here are the designs I found online:  Note - they are NOT to scale.

Source = Random Russian pub found via Google.

Data sheet:  The above designs are the last 3 columns on the right in order from top to bottom.
The 3 designs translate to:
Flugzeugträger für den Handelskrieg = Aircraft carrier for trade war
Flugzeugträger für den Serienbau = Aircraft carrier for series production
Kleiner Flugzeugträger = Small aircraft carrier


Source = Random forum posting (no source given) found via Google.

The design I will be building and have the Germans build in my timeline will be the upper most drawing with a modified island structure and augmented AA armament.  Still debating on whether or not they'd pull the 6" casemates and replace with more 105s or not; thoughts?

Air wing:
The only real aircraft they ever came up with were navalized Me-109s and Ju-87s and new build Fi-67s. 

My question is were there any others explored?  What else could be made carrier capable?  Any paper projects?  If they had developed a carrier program and continued it throughout the war what are some plausible aircraft choices?

I'm working under the prospects that the carrier force would be used to support ocean raiders and provide them with aerial cover against Allied CVs and heavy units that the 11" gunned Battlecruisers couldn't handle themselves.  That being said I feel I need some reliable fighters, dive bombers/torpedo bombers with some decent range and speed.

So far my fighter choices are:
Fw-190
He-100
He-112
Me-309

Attack choices seem to stop at Stukas.

Think any of the Me-210/310/410 designs could have been made carrier capable for special reasons?

Any ideas guys?  I know there has to be other choices but I'm coming up short here.  I seriously doubt the Germans would have accepted foreign designs for licensed production right?

-Mike
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 06:46:29 AM by Cliffy B »
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2013, 05:34:00 AM »
Attack choices seem to stop at Stukas.


What about the Henschel Hs-129?.  With the forward visibility afforded the pilot it should be no problem to land that beast on the GZ :)
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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2013, 06:28:06 AM »
I tend towards the Fw190 mainly because it was a relatively rugged design, relatively easily maintainable (good access panels etc) and equally useful in Air-to-Air and Air-to-Surface rolls (both ground and sea).  This would allow a single platform to fulfil most, if not all, roles - thus more useful when only able to carry a small number.

As much as I like the idea of a twin such as the Bf110/Me-210/310/410 in a carrier role, I simply don't see it happening for such a small carrier design.

Of course another whatif possibility is a late model (G or K) Bf109 in a carrier role - say as a Bf109T-3 or T-4?
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Offline Cliffy B

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2013, 06:44:19 AM »
Jeff - Thanks for the candidate.  From a quick look the Hs-129 is actually about the same size and weight as the Stuka  :o  Only problem is the Stuka out ranges it.  Compared to the SBD which, is of similar size and horsepower but weighs almost twice as much fully loaded, both the German planes can only report ranges that are HALF of the SBD.  Same size, horsepower yet twice as heavy and TWICE the range?  What was Germany doing different with their designs versus Douglas?  Does it come down to nothing more than fuel economy or is there some design aspect I'm overlooking? 

By the way, you could substitute the SBD with Mitsubishi's Val and the above would still be the same.  Is it simply that the SBD and Val were designed as naval aircraft and the German aircraft weren't or what?  Someone please enlighten me as I'm now very befuddled.

Greg - Me too.  I'm thinking Me-109 and Ju-87 for early war and then upgrading to the Fw-190 for fighter and bomber and something else for torpedoes.  Could a 190 carry a torpedo a decent range?  They can carry a 500kg (1102lbs) bomb so maybe a torpedo is possible.  I found a nice long list of German fish on Wiki but NO weights anywhere.... ::)
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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2013, 06:49:11 AM »
Mike, I suspect the range limitations may have something to do with available fuel tankage.  The Hs-129 was intended as a front line combat aircraft where it was just a short hop to start plinking tanks.  Perhaps it is something just that simple? 
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Offline Cliffy B

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2013, 07:10:12 AM »
Might just be Jeff.  I'll have to see if I can find some fuel capacity numbers.

The issue of operating the Hs-129 though seems like it would work well aboard ship.  Given that it's roughly the same size, weight, and power, and landing gear arrangement of the Stuka the only hurdles I can foresee would be the same ones any land based aircraft pilot would face when it comes to single versus twin engine operation.  Only thing I can think of that would be different would be center of gravity but I'm not sure how that would factor in; ideas?  Am I overlooking anything?
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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2013, 07:35:13 AM »
ould a 190 carry a torpedo a decent range?  They can carry a 500kg (1102lbs) bomb so maybe a torpedo is possible.  I found a nice long list of German fish on Wiki but NO weights anywhere.... ::)


The Fw190 could carry a torpedo:




The German torpedo in these cases was, I believe,  the F5B which had a weight of 1,598 - 1,790 lbs. (725 - 812 kg).
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Offline Cliffy B

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2013, 08:17:10 AM »
Hi Mike,

Found this little tidbit describing fuel capacity for the Hs-129:
Quote
Fuel: Two self-sealing wing tanks each holding 45 Imperial gallons (205 litres) and a single self-sealing fuselage tank of 44 Imperial gallons (200 litres). The Hs 129B-2 was capable of carrying a single droppable auxiliary fuel tank of 33 Imperial gallons (150 litres)



Found some numbers for the SBD here: http://www.ww2warbirds.net/ww2htmls/dougsbd.html
Fuel capacity internal - 258.1 Imp gal (310 US gal)       
Fuel capacity external - 96.6 Imp gal (116 US gal), equally distributed over 2 underwing drop tanks

Minimum = 258.1 Imp gal
Maximum = 258.1+96.6 = 354.7 Imp gal

Hs-129:
Minimum = 90+44 = 134 Imp gal
Maximum = 90+44+33 = 167 Imp gal

Fw-190: http://www.ww2warbirds.net/ww2htmls/fockfw190.html  - Very useful site for fuel capacities  ;)
Fuel capacity internal - 115.25 Imp gal (138.4 US gal) plus provision for 25.3 Imp gal (30.4 US gal) of auxiliary fuel in a rear-fuselage tank       
Fuel capacity external - 66 Imp gal (79.25 US gal) in one centerline drop tank

Minimum = 115.25 Imp gal
Medium = 115.25+25.3 = 140.55 Imp gal
Maximum = 115.25+25.3+66 = 206.55 Imp gal

Seems like gas was the major factor then wouldn't you say?  Wonder how much extra the Hs-129 and Fw-190 could carry internally if the engineers got creative?

Some neat things from the above website for the Fw-190:

1: The Fw 190G-2 was a simple development of the Fw 190G-1 based on the airframe of the Fw 190A-5 with its longer nose section for an overall length of 29 ft 4.25 in (8,95 m). It also had Messerschmidt-designed racks for the underwing drop tanks, which provided for a maximum range of 963 miles (1.550 km). One conversion existed.

2: Focke-Wulf Fw 190G-8    Based on the airframe of the Fw 190A-8 with its 25.3 Imp gal (30.4 US gal; 115 liter) auxiliary tank.

Rüstsätze (field conversion sets):
Fw 190G-8/R4    Powered by 1 × BMW 801D-2 engine with the GM 1 nitrous oxide power-boost system.
Fw 190G-8/R5    Powered by 1 × BMW 801TU engine, rated at 2,000 hp (1.491 kW) for take-off and carrying four ETC 50 underwing racks in addition to the ETC 501 under fuselage rack.

3: Fw 190G-3 = Up to 3,968 lb on three hardpoints:
Center fuselage rated at 3,968 lb, carrying 1 × 3,968 lb (SC-1800) bomb or 1 × 1,102 lb (SC-500) bomb
2 underwing units rated at 551 lb, carrying 2 × 551 lb (SC-250) bombs, or 4 × 110 lb (SC-50) bombs

An all Fw-190 air wing is looking better and better gents; thoughts?  Maybe augment with a few navalized Hs-129s and/or Me-410s for long range recon/heavy strike? 

Me-410: http://www.ww2warbirds.net/ww2htmls/messme410.html
Fuel capacity internal - 1,100 Imp gal (1,321 US gal)
Range - 1,050 miles

Me-410B-5: Experimental Torpedo bomber version
Provision for: 1 × 1,984 lb (900 kg) LT F5b torpedo, or 1 × 1,675 lb (760 kg) LT F5i torpedo, or 1 × 3,968 lb (1.800 kg) SC-1800 bomb, or 2 × 882 lb (400 kg) BT-400 bomb-torpedoes, or 6 × 440 lb (200 kg) BT-200 bomb-torpedoes carried as two under the fuselage and four under the outer wing panels.  Extra fuel amounting to an additional 297 Imp gal.

Based on what I've measured so far, the Fw-190, Hs-129, and Me-410 would all fit aboard the flight decks, elevators, and hangar decks of all 3 CVL designs if provided with folding wings.  Thoughts gents?
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Offline Cliffy B

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2013, 08:32:19 AM »
Greg - Thank you for those photos of 190s with a fish  8)

Wonder how well one would handle with a fish and 2 wing mounted drop tanks?
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2013, 09:03:18 AM »
ould a 190 carry a torpedo a decent range?  They can carry a 500kg (1102lbs) bomb so maybe a torpedo is possible.  I found a nice long list of German fish on Wiki but NO weights anywhere.... ::)


The Fw190 could carry a torpedo:




The German torpedo in these cases was, I believe,  the F5B which had a weight of 1,598 - 1,790 lbs. (725 - 812 kg).


That makes the FW190 look better and better as a carrier aircraft, add an armour piercing bomb and your cruising.  The only issue I could see would be the need for a two seater observation type, a two seater FW190 maybe, or even a carrier version of the FW189 Attack variant that lost out to the Henschel. 
Actually how about the Flettner Fl 282 Kolibri or a larger derivative there of...?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flettner_Fl_282

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2013, 09:08:30 AM »
Greg - Thank you for those photos of 190s with a fish  8)

Wonder how well one would handle with a fish and 2 wing mounted drop tanks?


Mike,

The two dedicated ground attack variants of the Fw-190 appear to have been capable of lifting a full size torpedo in the 1800 kg (3530 lb) range according to the Wikipedia entries for the Fw-190F and Fw-190G
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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2013, 09:10:41 AM »
Maybe make use of the overwing slipper tanks:

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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2013, 09:29:52 AM »
How about a navalized Fw-190S-8 for observation and forward control purposes?  With the "R-11" field conversion set, it could also serve as at least a limited nightfighter.

Offline Cliffy B

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2013, 09:54:05 AM »
Greg - What model used those, if any specific model, and any idea of their capacity?

Even - Yes, yes, YES!!!  Great idea sir  8)  Only issue I can see if range maybe since they pulled the fuselage tank for the 2nd seat...hmmm....  Slipper tanks and drop tank maybe?
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 10:08:40 AM by Cliffy B »
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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2013, 12:43:24 PM »
The slipper tanks were not used operationally from all accounts though they were trialled on either an A-7 or A-8 (I have seen both referenced).  They supposedly held 270L.  Most importantly though, you can get them as either upgrade conversions or as part of a full kit. ;)
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 12:46:32 PM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2013, 12:45:29 PM »
Only issue I can see if range maybe since they pulled the fuselage tank for the 2nd seat...hmmm....  Slipper tanks and drop tank maybe?

I could see that working, though you might need some catapult, or RATO, assist for takeoff with all of that on board

Offline Cliffy B

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2013, 12:59:38 PM »
Only issue I can see if range maybe since they pulled the fuselage tank for the 2nd seat...hmmm....  Slipper tanks and drop tank maybe?

I could see that working, though you might need some catapult, or RATO, assist for takeoff with all of that on board

All 3 CVL designs have a pair of bow cats so we're golden in that respect!

Now to find some 1/700 Fw-190s, Hs-219s, and Me-410s!  Skywave has a set with 190s but they're $20+ and you only get 4 :-\  Think I'll be scratch building some assemble line planes....oh what fun I've set myself up to have  ;D
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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2013, 01:01:41 PM »


Now to find some 1/700 Fw-190s, Hs-219s, and Me-410s!  Skywave has a set with 190s but they're $20+ and you only get 4 :-\  Think I'll be scratch building some assemble line planes....oh what fun I've set myself up to have  ;D

Let me know what you do or find since I might be interested in some too.
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Offline Spey Phantom

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2013, 04:02:45 PM »
reading up on my history, Germany did have some aircraft carrier plans.

the original plan was to build 2 Graf-Zeppelin class carriers, but there were also plans to convert the Seydlitz, an Admiral Hipper class cruiser.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_cruiser_Seydlitz

the conversion of the oceanliner "Europa" (Flugteugträger I) would have given the German Navy a good fleet of carriers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_aircraft_carrier_I_%281942%29

as for aircraft, the the Bf109T and Ju87C would have formed the backbone of its airwings, allong with a number of smaller Arado and Fiesler scout and torpedo aircraft.

i guess if Germany really followed through on theyre carrier ambitions, i think we would have seen carrier based versions of the Fw190, Me410 and maybe even a Ar234 torpedo bomber. although Germany had no operational carriers during the war, they do were the first ones to equip them with steam catapults, something the Allies only started in the late 40's early 50's.
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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2013, 06:26:20 PM »
The slipper tanks were not used operationally from all accounts though they were trialled on either an A-7 or A-8 (I have seen both referenced).  They supposedly held 270L.  Most importantly though, you can get them as either upgrade conversions or as part of a full kit. ;)


For the builders, you can get the tanks in 1/72 at Lonewulf LW014.



Would the FW-190 use a stinger type arrestor hook or an A-frame?
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Offline ed s

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2013, 10:11:01 PM »
Great idea. Here's a Me410 torpedo bomber I did a couple years ago.





Build thread
http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,26432.0/highlight,me410.html

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Offline Cliffy B

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2013, 10:54:44 PM »
Greg - I think I'll be scratch building the planes unless someone has a collection they want to part with?

From looking at dimensions and drawings I think I can carve Fw-190s out of A6M Zeros and come up with an acceptable 190.  I'll need to get a few first but I can get a pack of IJN aircraft (with 12 Zeros) for $5 so...  ;)  I'll order soon and see what I can do with them.

Ed S - I knew I saw one of those somewhere before but just couldn't remember where!  :)  What colors did you use?

Nils - I've seen those before.  If you want to see some really crazy designs look up the following: A-I, A-II, A-IIa, A-III, A-IV.

My premise, however realistic or not given treaties and all of that, is the Germens are allowed to convert 2 of their incomplete BB/BCs from WWI in the 1920s after successfully lobbying the treaty powers.  They are converted with the help of Italy and Japan and the Germens learn how to operate CVs and their aircraft and develop an effective scouting force for their fleet.  They envision them working hand in hand with their new "pocket battleships" in a commerce war yet realize that the BB/BC conversion are just plain too big so they explore some cruiser sized CVLs as a way to get more hulls in the water in a shorter amount of time.

So a CVL with about 30 aircraft operating in conjunction with a pocket BB and some CLs and/or some long range DDs would make up their raiding groups.  This would force the Brits to devote more and more heavy surface units to their convoys lessening their ability to conduct other operations.  Given I have the Germens re-building their fleet much sooner than in real life the Brits would probably counter with a new building program of their own so the Brits might be a bit more prepared for a convoy war in the early years then they actually were.
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Offline Weaver

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2013, 06:43:51 AM »
I agree with everything that's been said pointing to an all-Fw-190 force: it's the ideal choice. The main question to be asked is what kind of operations are contemplated? If it's a case of protecting the commerce-raiders, then an all-Fw-190 air wing looks particularly attractive, since it's main function would be to shoot down recce planes and drive off air attacks: you can imagine how well a Swordfish strike would fair against a Fw-190 CAP.... :o

The option of making a limited dive-bombing/torpedo attack would be useful too. The carrier wouldn't really carry enough aircraft for an effective mass air strike, but if it could harrass shadowing cruisers into losing contact with the raiding group, that would be highly useful.

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Offline Spey Phantom

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2013, 04:38:08 PM »
looking at the shelves, i remember building a Navalised Heinkel He70, the He.70T
would have been used from German Carriers in the beginning days of the Battle of Britain to sink Royal Navy warships docked in Dover.





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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2013, 05:05:15 PM »
This would almost be worth a Gb with all the good ideas and great work coming out.

Offline Weaver

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2013, 07:36:34 PM »
looking at the shelves, i remember building a Navalised Heinkel He70, the He.70T
would have been used from German Carriers in the beginning days of the Battle of Britain to sink Royal Navy warships docked in Dover.








That's a neat idea!  :)

Also worth remembering that the Revellobox kit has all the parts for the radial-engined He-170 version too. The real one had a Gnome Rhone 14 of about 1000hp, so you could easily update it to use the Fw-190's BMW 801.

Another Heinkel-ish option would be a "Germanised"  Aichi D3A. The Val was the result of a collaboration between Heinkel and Aichi and had the characteristic oval wings of the He-70, in fact, if you set out to properly militarise the He-70, you'd end up with something very like the D3A.

A further though: if you wanted retractable gear, He-70 wings are only a shade bigger than the Val's (1.5 ft on the span, 23 sq ft on the area) and combined with a BMW 801 would make a seriously capable aircraft......
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Offline jcf

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2013, 12:17:09 AM »
Putting an 801 on a D3A is a much better solution than trying to put one on a He 170 airframe,
the latter would require major redesign as the airframe actually wasn't very good as a warplane.
The He70 series originated as an answer to the Lockheed Orions used by SwissAir, and that emphasis
showed when they tried to turn it into a warplane. In either case the 801 is a large, heavy engine
slightly larger in diameter than the G-R 14N or the Kinsei, and much heavier, over 900 lbs heavier
than the former and more than a 1000lbs greater than the latter. For modelling purposes, I'd take
a look at seeing if a Ju 88 801 cowling/exhausts would fit.

As pointed out, the Aichi bomber's Heinkel influences are pretty obvious, so I'd be inclined to do one
as an He 118B, as a simplified, multi-crew, fixed gear 're-design' of the He 118 following it's troubles.
It wouldn't be the first time Heinkel seriously re-jigged a design and called it by the same designation,
see the He 112. It could double duty as dive-bomber and torpedo carrier.
 ;)

Sticking to an all 801 radial powered, single-engined air group would also greatly simplify logistics, and
stay away from the GM-1 boost system, it worked but it also had a habit of ruining engines,
particularly the DB inverted Vs.
 :-\
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 12:31:09 AM by jcf »
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Offline Cliffy B

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2013, 01:12:02 AM »
Thanks for that Nils!  From reading about the He-70 it seems that Heinkel and Aichi worked together to develop the Val based on the He-70.  I wonder if that could be used as a basis for the Val or a Val derivative to fly in Kriegsmarine colors?  Thoughts?  Maybe as an early replacement for the Stuka or as a modified/upgraded Stuka replacement?

Edit: Didn't even notice the 2nd page of posts when I made that  :)

Volkodav - I'll second that idea certainly!!!  :)  Wonder how much interest we can generate?

Weaver - A swarm of 190s would certainly ruin a Swordfish run that's for sure! 30 some planes wouldn't be a decent sized strike but that's why I foresee them using multiple CVLs for large convoy attacks especially after they start beefing up escort quantity and adding heavier units.  They'll provide CAP for the heavy ships as well as harassing attacks when Cruisers come calling.  The later will come in handy when they need to run from BBs and given that the raiding group can all run at 35+ knots some harassing attacks is just what they'd need to make a getaway, at least until the O-class Battlecruisers join the raiding groups  ;)
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 01:33:34 AM by Cliffy B »
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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2013, 08:25:28 AM »
Putting an 801 on a D3A is a much better solution than trying to put one on a He 170 airframe,
the latter would require major redesign as the airframe actually wasn't very good as a warplane.
The He70 series originated as an answer to the Lockheed Orions used by SwissAir, and that emphasis
showed when they tried to turn it into a warplane. In either case the 801 is a large, heavy engine
slightly larger in diameter than the G-R 14N or the Kinsei, and much heavier, over 900 lbs heavier
than the former and more than a 1000lbs greater than the latter. For modelling purposes, I'd take
a look at seeing if a Ju 88 801 cowling/exhausts would fit.

As pointed out, the Aichi bomber's Heinkel influences are pretty obvious, so I'd be inclined to do one
as an He 118B, as a simplified, multi-crew, fixed gear 're-design' of the He 118 following it's troubles.
It wouldn't be the first time Heinkel seriously re-jigged a design and called it by the same designation,
see the He 112. It could double duty as dive-bomber and torpedo carrier.
 ;)

Cheers Jon!

Perhaps you could balance the extra weight of the BMW engine by giving the Val a better defensive armament, and then compensate for all the extra weight by fitting the He-70 wing, with or without retractable gear?
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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #30 on: October 02, 2013, 02:52:33 AM »
Of course, one could later replace the Fw190s with later models:


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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #31 on: October 02, 2013, 03:30:01 AM »
Perhaps you could balance the extra weight of the BMW engine by giving the Val a better defensive armament, and then compensate for all the extra weight by fitting the He-70 wing, with or without retractable gear?

The main weakness of the He 70 series was the wooden wing design, by the time you beefed
it up enough to take the stresses, any weight advantage, which was minor to start with, would
be completely gone.
The 'flat' wing design of the D3A was an improvement over the mild gull form of the He 70,
which was reused on the He 112 and He 118. Heinkel dumped the Gunter Bros wing form
completely on later projects. The Gunter wing was more expensive and time consuming to
manufacture and it would be harder to "break" for wing fold purposes.

My personal inclination would be to keep the fixed gear and install MG81Z as the rear armament,
however if one was to go for retracts, keep it simple and use something Northrop-ish; A-17A or
SBD style. The other option would be the Boeing designed gear as used on the P-40.
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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #32 on: October 02, 2013, 03:31:39 AM »
Of course, one could later replace the Fw190s with later models:





Why? They're ugly fuel hogs.  ;D
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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #33 on: October 02, 2013, 05:35:06 AM »
I'm glad the Bf-109T was killed off early - imagine trying to land on a carrier with that narrow undercarriage, dropping a wing &, with that canopy, getting out after you went in the drink !

I still plan to do GTX's He-219 (droop radar nose, remote tail-turret) as a naval version with a torpedo ! :)

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #34 on: October 02, 2013, 09:14:19 AM »
I'm glad the Bf-109T was killed off early - imagine trying to land on a carrier with that narrow undercarriage, dropping a wing &, with that canopy, getting out after you went in the drink !

Don't have to imagine it, just read up on on Seafire ops..... ;)
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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2013, 10:29:27 AM »
One thing that could work against a carrier-borne Fw 190 is their high landing speed (even worse with the D-models).
Cheers,
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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2013, 11:12:39 AM »
One thing that could work against a carrier-borne Fw 190 is their high landing speed (even worse with the D-models).
Fw-190A/F/G/S variants with a folding version of the Ta-152H wing to reduce their landing speed?

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #37 on: October 02, 2013, 01:42:09 PM »
^ Yeah, something like that. And all sorts of high-lift devices they can cram onto it, probably.
Cheers,
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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #38 on: October 03, 2013, 02:14:35 AM »

Why? They're ugly fuel hogs.  ;D

Bah!!  "Ugly" (as is beauty) is in the eye of the beholder... ;)
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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #39 on: October 03, 2013, 02:19:57 AM »
Of course you could go the tried and true way - licence build Japanese designs (carriers and associated aircraft), after all come the late '30s/early '40s, the Japanese were probably the world leaders in carrier weapons.  Therefore German versions of:

Mitsubishi A6M Zero - maybe a stretch (stick with Bf109/Fw190 IMHO)
Aichi D3A Val - or Ju87
Nakajima B5N Kate
Nakajima B6N Jill
Aichi B7A Grace
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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #40 on: October 03, 2013, 02:35:46 AM »
Perhaps you could balance the extra weight of the BMW engine by giving the Val a better defensive armament, and then compensate for all the extra weight by fitting the He-70 wing, with or without retractable gear?

The main weakness of the He 70 series was the wooden wing design, by the time you beefed
it up enough to take the stresses, any weight advantage, which was minor to start with, would
be completely gone.
The 'flat' wing design of the D3A was an improvement over the mild gull form of the He 70,
which was reused on the He 112 and He 118. Heinkel dumped the Gunter Bros wing form
completely on later projects. The Gunter wing was more expensive and time consuming to
manufacture and it would be harder to "break" for wing fold purposes.

My personal inclination would be to keep the fixed gear and install MG81Z as the rear armament,
however if one was to go for retracts, keep it simple and use something Northrop-ish; A-17A or
SBD style. The other option would be the Boeing designed gear as used on the P-40.


I was thinking more in terms of the kits than the real aircraft, to be honest. My retractable gear big-wing Val would only look like it had an He 70 wing: the claim would be that internally, it was quite different (all metal for one thing). The point of fitting the "He-70ish" wing wouldn't be to compensate for the weight of the BMW by the new wing being lighter, but rather by increasing the wing area, so that the wing loading didn't go up as much.

I'm with you on the long-nosed Dora BTW: perfect example of a good plane spoiled by a good engine.... ;)
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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #41 on: October 03, 2013, 02:40:59 AM »
I guess you guys haven't heard of the concept of "Sexy Ugly" ;D
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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #42 on: October 03, 2013, 03:40:03 AM »
The problem with licensing Japanese 'world beater' designs in the late '30s ~ 1941 is two-fold:
1) Nazi racial and industrial/economic policies, stated offhandedly as 'they'se subhuman and we'se broke'
2) the world beaters were still mostly in the prototype and development stages

The answer to the FW 190 landing speed issue would probably be a mild span increase and enlarged,
improved flap system.

Ditto a bigger-wing D3A+BMW 801 hybrid, the He 70 wing is only slightly larger than the
D3A, @ 19 ft2, so extend the tips, and again, use an improved, enlarged flap system.
For retracts, on a model, steal the wheel bays, gear and doors from an SBD.

Heck, use Fowler flaps on both types, they were well known by the late '30s so it wouldn't be a stretch.

So, perhaps, extended, rounded tips on the 190 ala the 109F and on; and extended, pointed tips on the
'He 118B', both Fowler flaps, heck on the 190 make'em like the Nakajima 'butterfly flaps' so they can
be used for combat maneuvering as well as take-off/landing.

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Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #43 on: October 03, 2013, 05:46:11 AM »
There is also the obvious issue that we bring up all the time.  The Japanese aircraft were so efficient BECAUSE they were Japanese.  Their growth potential was usually relatively limited.  You have to remember, if the Germans built (or even operated) a Zero, they'd have added a good deal of armor, self-sealing fuel tanks, and a number of other German essentials.  That would have increased the gross weight considerably.  Then you'd need to beef up the structure to accommodate it.  Then you add a more powerful engine, more strengthening, and suddenly it's not a Zero any more.  The increased power means increased fuel consumption.  Self-sealing tanks means that it holds less fuel, etc.  All that would decrease the rate of climb, for example.

I'm not saying that you couldn't do it or that there still wouldn't be a net benefit.  But there is no such thing as a free lunch.  The Japanese built fantastic, efficient aircraft, but you have to keep it in perspective.  They were building aircraft that nobody else would have built if they had wanted to.  The Japanese were leaving out things that everyone else considered essential in a combat aircraft.  They got a considerable benefit in performance as a result, but they didn't get it for free.  They paid the price in durability, protection, and growth potential.  In some cases, the aircraft were even built so small that it's doubtful your average Westerner could have flown the plane.  The Ki-43 Oscar, for example, may have been big enough for 95% of Japanese pilots, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was closer to 60% or 70% in the West.  I'm just guessing, but these are all factors to consider on the real things.

That having been said, in the Whif world, do whatever you want.  I love seeing Japanese aircraft in other countries' markings since almost nobody else actually used them.

Thanks,

Logan

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #44 on: October 03, 2013, 07:42:15 AM »
Pretty much agree Logan, particularly when discussing the late '30s - early '40s,
going into late '43 and up to the end however, Japanese designs are closer to
European and US types in terms of equipment, weight and performance. In
a few cases they were superior. Problem is they couldn't build enough and had
serious issues with engines, performance and supply, and their fuel was crap.

Another thought, Junkers built various types of the same aircraft that were equipped
with both V engines and radials, Ju 86 and Ju 88, so how about they do a radial
powered Ju 87 variation for the KM? Perhaps a BMW 132 powered version of the B, and
a more heavily re-designed 801 powered D-based type.

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #45 on: October 03, 2013, 04:56:23 PM »
Recommended in relation to this thread:

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Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #46 on: October 03, 2013, 05:58:52 PM »
Pretty much agree Logan, particularly when discussing the late '30s - early '40s, going into late '43 and up to the end however, Japanese designs are closer to European and US types in terms of equipment, weight and performance. In a few cases they were superior. Problem is they couldn't build enough and had serious issues with engines, performance and supply, and their fuel was crap.


I agree, though by late '43, the matter was basically academic.

I did a few proposed schemes for Graf Zeppelin aircraft that I thought came out pretty well, too.









Finally, I heard something that's related to this topic a while ago that I found amusing that many of you might appreciate.

Apparently, after the Battle of Midway in June of 1942, the Germans had heard a bit about it and asked the Japanese how the whole thing had gone.  The Japanese weren't entirely forthcoming, vaguely mentioning that it had gone just fine.  Something the Japanese said later, however, tipped the Germans off to the possibility that the truth may have been more complicated.  I imagine the conversation went something like this:

Germany: "Hey, the US news sources have been bragging about some battle they had with you around Midway Island.  Everything turn out alright?"

Japan: "Oh, yeah, that?  Yeah, that went fine.  We blasted the island, sank a couple of US carriers, it all went pretty well."

G: "That's good, we were worried when we first heard about it, but I'm glad to hear it was just Allied propaganda."

J: "Yeah, you know how their propaganda can be.  Anyway, not to change the subject, but my government was wondering if you could forward a request on to your government."

G: "Absolutely.  What can we do for you?"

J: "Well, that carrier of yours, the Graf Zeppelin?"

G: "Yeah, what about it?"

J: "Well, our Navy was wondering--if you weren't using it--if they could borrow it, or even buy it from you?"

G: "Borrow it?  I can ask, but wait..."

Cheers,

Logan

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #47 on: October 04, 2013, 02:17:55 AM »
Actually that does make an interesting whiff scenario - somehow the Graf Zeppelin ends up in the Pacific with the Japanese.  It was launched in Dec 1938 and originally had a projected completion by the middle of 1940.  What if this occurred and perhaps a breakout was staged whereby it and possibly one of the Battleships joined it.  After raiding in the Atlantic, rather than come home and risk loss, the ship diverts to Japan and ends up staying there and operating in cooperation with the IJN...Hmmm...story forming.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 02:20:08 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #48 on: October 04, 2013, 03:21:37 AM »
It's not like the Germans were using it, after all.  It would have to be before 1942, though.  There's little chance they'd have been able to get it out anytime during the war, but by 1942 it would be almost impossible.  Best chance would be the Japanese buying it before WWII and towing or sailing it under the Japanese flag in 1939 or 1940 to avoid it being attacked.  Japanese flag or not, the British wouldn't let it pass freely by 1941.  They'd rather impound it and pay Japan restitution or something.

Cheers,

Logan

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #49 on: October 05, 2013, 02:02:31 AM »
I'm actually thinking the Graf Zeppelin remains in Kreigsmarine control with German crew.  It would just be operating alongside the IJN and possibly start operating Japanese designs out of necessity since they would be easier to support locally.
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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #50 on: October 05, 2013, 02:36:38 AM »
 ... or an IJN carrier is visiting Kiel in the summer of 1939 and ends up stuck there when the
war begins.

The what, the how and the why I leave to others.  ;D  :icon_fsm:
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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #51 on: October 05, 2013, 02:42:07 AM »
... or an IJN carrier is visiting Kiel in the summer of 1939 and ends up stuck there when the
war begins.

The what, the how and the why I leave to others.  ;D  :icon_fsm:

You're Evil!!!  Now I have a "Tale of two Carriers" to deal with!!! :icon_crap:
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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #52 on: October 05, 2013, 03:06:06 AM »
The slipper tanks were not used operationally from all accounts though they were trialled on either an A-7 or A-8 (I have seen both referenced).  They supposedly held 270L.  Most importantly though, you can get them as either upgrade conversions or as part of a full kit. ;)


For the builders, you can get the tanks in 1/72 at Lonewulf LW014.



Would the FW-190 use a stinger type arrestor hook or an A-frame?


and if you are lazy and simply want the whole kit:

1/72:



1/48:

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #53 on: October 05, 2013, 03:21:42 AM »
I did that too.  :o
Work in progress ::

I am giving up listing them. They all end up on the shelf of procrastination anyways.

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Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #54 on: October 05, 2013, 03:26:26 AM »
I'm actually thinking the Graf Zeppelin remains in Kreigsmarine control with German crew.  It would just be operating alongside the IJN and possibly start operating Japanese designs out of necessity since they would be easier to support locally.


That's fine, but it'd have to get out of Dodge before 1941.  Look what happened to the Bismarck in May of 1941, and that was just going for a jaunt in the North Atlantic.  Now instead you've got a more important ship trying to sail a whole lot further through even more foreign waters.  Again, I'm not saying it couldn't be done, the German commerce raiders did it, but they had the advantage of disguise and many of them made their initial escapes in 1939 and '40, their departures growing more perilous as the war drew on.

I don't think that they'd actually have Japanese crews, mind you, at least for the delivery voyage.  Officially, the Germans would likely officially discharge the crews from the Kreigsmarine, so that they could say it sailed with a civilian crew.  I think the Germans could say they've sold it to the Japanese, paint a Japanese name on the ship, Japanese flags on the flight deck, and fly some Japanese flags from the mast, and they might get away with it if the Japanese used extreme diplomatic pressure.  Once it arrived in the Pacific, I imagine that it'd operate with a composite crew, likely with a Japanese air group, complete with Japanese aircraft and flight crew.  It wouldn't serve the Germans very much to actually sacrifice the aircraft and aircrew when they could use them back in Europe.

Interestingly, this "tale of two carriers" actually did happen, albeit on a miniature scale.  The Germans operated a Japanese float plane with a German flight crew from the auxiliary cruiser Orion to supplement their one remaining Arado Ar 196 until they received a replacement.  Like the cruiser it operated from, it operated in disguise, in this case as a British floatplane.





Likewise, the Japanese operated an Arado Ar 196 in the Pacific, too.  The Germans may also have even operated the Aichi E13A.
http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/stories/yasunaga1.html





Cheers,

Logan

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #55 on: October 05, 2013, 03:29:31 AM »
That's fine, but it'd have to get out of Dodge before 1941.  Look what happened to the Bismarck in May of 1941, and that was just going for a jaunt in the North Atlantic.  Now instead you've got a more important ship trying to sail a whole lot further through even more foreign waters. 


I have a cunning plan... ;)
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Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #56 on: October 05, 2013, 03:30:50 AM »
How many times have I told you, Greg?  The tunnel just isn't going to work.

Cheers,

Logan

Offline Cliffy B

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #57 on: October 05, 2013, 03:33:10 AM »
Wonderful ideas guys!!!  I had a story idea where GZ goes raiding and gets stuck in the Indian Ocean with the IJN and winds up using Zeroes and other IJN planes as her own get used up. 

I'm REALLY liking that idea of the IJN CV getting trapped in Kiel!!!  I might have to incorporate that into my own story if that's OK with you jcf?  That could lead to German planes in IJN markings or even some sort of brand new hybrid IJN/German designs to replace the original aircraft.  Hmmm....   Too bad the Germans (enough of them in the right places anyway...) had to be dicks with their "racial purity" crap back then.  I'll have to change that....

I like the idea of an IJN CVL (and a small group of escorts) getting trapped during a training visit to help get the Kriegsmarine indoctrinated into CV ops and the like.  Hmmm....

So can I use the idea jcf???

Greg - That book you posted by John Baxter; were those real aircraft designs or what?  I'm not finding anything on them and they look REALLY interesting.  Any info?  the BV-237 would have been "interesting" performing CV ops to say the least.  That Fw-247T has me very intrigued though and I can't find anything on it  ???
« Last Edit: October 05, 2013, 03:35:47 AM by Cliffy B »
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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #58 on: October 05, 2013, 03:33:28 AM »


 ;)
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Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #59 on: October 05, 2013, 03:38:34 AM »
Doesn't that have...complications?



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Logan

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #60 on: October 05, 2013, 03:44:19 AM »
Greg - That book you posted by John Baxter; were those real aircraft designs or what?  I'm not finding anything on them and they look REALLY interesting.  Any info?


John's designs are either real or based upon real.  Many of the later ones are simply Luft'46 types but some such as the Fw247 are more developed.  In this case, the Fw247 is a Germanised version of the B7A:



I recommend all of his books:

« Last Edit: October 05, 2013, 03:46:31 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #61 on: October 05, 2013, 03:49:27 AM »
Doesn't that have...complications?



Ve have vays....!!!

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #62 on: October 05, 2013, 03:51:03 AM »
This thread needs a Luftwaffe Zero....



Thanks to our very own hushkit .
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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #63 on: October 05, 2013, 03:55:58 AM »
The slipper tanks were not used operationally from all accounts though they were trialled on either an A-7 or A-8 (I have seen both referenced).  They supposedly held 270L.  Most importantly though, you can get them as either upgrade conversions or as part of a full kit. ;)


Aftermarket in resin: Fw 190 A-7 Slipper Tanks (Airmodel Products - Nr. AZ-72014)

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #64 on: October 05, 2013, 04:43:56 AM »
Of course, for much later:


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Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #65 on: October 05, 2013, 05:34:03 AM »
I love Gekko's camo for these.  That 262 is especially pretty.

Cheers,

Logan

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #66 on: October 05, 2013, 06:37:45 AM »
Greg - That book you posted by John Baxter; were those real aircraft designs or what?  I'm not finding anything on them and they look REALLY interesting.  Any info?


John's designs are either real or based upon real.  Many of the later ones are simply Luft'46 types but some such as the Fw247 are more developed.  In this case, the Fw247 is a Germanised version of the B7A:



I recommend all of his books:




What where how who? I want need crave desire must have that Alternate RAAF, RAN FAA book - WHERE CAN I GET ONE?

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #67 on: October 05, 2013, 06:42:22 AM »
Well, if you were here you could borrow mine... ;)

You should be able to find it online somewhere.  Failing that, let me know and I will try to dig up John's email address for you to contact him directly.
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Offline Cliffy B

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #68 on: October 05, 2013, 07:24:55 AM »
Funny you should say that its a German Grace....
http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/tam/tam31516.htm
12 Zekes
8 Judys
8 Jills
2 Graces
2 Myrts


I'll be getting a few of those soon as well as possibly an IJN ship or two  ;)

I'm looking now for Baxter's books as well.  Amazon has them listed but all say "currently unavailable" even for used copies... 

Edit: I found one or two on random used book sites; $100+ is far out of the question.  Friggin greedy book sellers...  "It's 'rare' lets jack the price through the roof 500%!"  @#!%@#^T#%!@#%
« Last Edit: October 05, 2013, 07:27:57 AM by Cliffy B »
"Radials growl, inlines purr, jets blow!"  -Anonymous

"Helos don't fly.  They vibrate so violently that the ground rejects them."  -Tom Clancy

"If all else fails, call in an air strike."  -Anonymous

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #69 on: October 05, 2013, 12:28:54 PM »
I am wondering if Bismarks first (and last) sortie had been delayed until both Tirpitz and Graf Zepplin were ready?  Imagine a task group of two BBs two BCs a CV and a couple of CAs sortied into the North Atlantic 1941, staying out of reach of the RAF, using their fighters against the RN FAA aircraft and their dive bombers against shadowing RN cruisers.  Maybe stationing wolf packs in strategic sectors to further hamstring pursuit.  What could the UK have done?

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #70 on: October 06, 2013, 03:03:03 AM »
PM sent re John Baxter books.
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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #71 on: October 06, 2013, 03:58:23 AM »
Going back to the Fw190s, you can easily get kits:




or simply conversions:

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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #72 on: October 06, 2013, 07:03:35 AM »

Offline jcf

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Re: Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities
« Reply #73 on: October 06, 2013, 09:41:50 AM »
Hyland's Bookshop, in Oz but I've purchased from them in the past with no issue,
seem to have them, and reasonably priced:
 http://used.addall.com/SuperRare/RefineRare.fcgi?id=131005183150685449

used.addall.com is my first stop when book hunting, as to prices, be aware that if the
bookseller goes through the Amazon system they may be using auto-pricing algorithms,
which can produce some insane results, and if the sellers select the watch function and
auto price increase the results are beyond insane. A goes up so B goes up that more
so A goes up so B goes up ... on and on ... ... ...
 :-X
Like many things it's more laziness than greed.

As to that Ta 183, snork, the friggin' thing wouldn't have worked on land in that form
let alone on board a ship.
 ;D  ;D

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