Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration

[dadlamassu]

Can someone advise me what variant this is:

Looks to me like someone has added the top of a Foden 6x6 Recovery Truck onto a Centuron chassis.

[M.A.D]

Well there was the FV 4004 Self-propelled gun based on a Centurion 3 hull with a larger calibre 120 mm L1 gun in a turret made from rolled plate.



And the Olifant Mk 2 was proposed with a 120mm gun.

Where did you find the image?

Thanks for your reply GTX
I found the image on my hard drive and have had no luck finding more about it 😔

MAD

[apophenia]

This less 'inspiration' and more of a question. I'm hoping to gets some clarity on the Centurion Low Profile Turret update proposal - especially on dating.

Waaay back in Reply #87, Greg mentioned that Teledyne converted a Centurion Mk.5 hull as a Centurion LPT demonstrator prototype: https://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=42d418e91f1017d0a2a793ffb112a01f&topic=178.msg104413#msg104413

According to some sources, Teledyne approached Canada with this Centurion update proposal. That proposal involved installation of a Teledyne Continental powerplant, an applique-armour package for the hull, and the Low-Profile Turret. I'm not sure of the date of this proposal but the LPT comes from the early-to-mid 1980s. And there is the problem with this proposal.

Krauss-Maffei handed over the first Leopard C1s in June 1978. So why was Teledyne proposing a Centurion update to DND when the Leopard C1 had already replaced Canada's Cents (at least half a decade prior)? It doesn't make any sense.

As an aside, once Canada fielded Leopard 1s - first Bundeswehr loaners, then Leopard C1s - the 'worn-out' Centurions were sold off to Israel. There, the IDF ugraded some of them to Sho't Kal standards. Ironically, this included installing the same Teledyne Continental Motors (TCM) AVDS-1790-2A diesel engine [1] proposed for the Centurion LPT conversion. However, this engine made more sense for Israel - partially for commonality for their M60/Magach fleet, partially to encourage the US Congress to fund the upgrade through foreign aid.

_________________________________________

[1] Although the IDF uses an Allison CD 850-6 transmission, not the originally proposed 'TCM 304' automatic transmission (which, in reality, was just a Teledyne rebranding of the German Renk RK 304S).

[GTX_Admin]

According to here, the Canadians considered a "Centurion modernization along Israel lines" in the mid-1970s before deciding on the Leopard.  I wonder if that is the basis for what you have seen and that it was not in the '80s?

As an aside, I also see the mention of Scorpion light tanks as well - there's another whiff idea.

[apophenia]

Greg: The mention I saw was definitely for the Teledyne upgrade package. That's what confused me.

Thanks for the CMH article ... plenty of good info in there.

I wasn't aware that the (Poppa) Trudeau government was pushing the Scorpion. (I suppose that was for turret commonality with the AVGP Cougar - which was originally meant to be a wheeled 'tank trainer'.) As you say, a Canadian Scorpion makes for an interesting whiff - 'recce by fire' alongside the Leopard C1s perhaps?

On air-portability, there's long been a CF fixation on 'just fly it in' in preference to strategic stockpiling. Underneath Trudeau's Scorpion push, though, would have been a GoC determination not to buy American M60s. In any case, the Leopard C1s proved an excellent choice. Israel had the incentive to make use of Centurions for decades, Canada did not.

The Teledyne LPT is a whole 'nother thing. It makes for great whiff-fodder ... but nine ready rounds! Yikes 

[Gingie]

Krauss-Maffei handed over the first Leopard C1s in June 1978. So why was Teledyne proposing a Centurion update to DND when the Leopard C1 had already replaced Canada's Cents (at least half a decade prior)? It doesn't make any sense.

The Cents would have been phased out as the Leopards began to arrive, so there would be a period where they could have been modernized and replaced the Shermans in the Militia armoured regiments.

As an aside, I can look out my window and see the Reserve Service Battalion's LSVW - a truck that has been available for auction purchase for a few years now, while versions are still operational. Perhaps the timing of Teledyne's offer was based on similar circumstances?

Talk about a great What-If though! RCD Centurion Mk XII LPT (D) in the FRY.

[apophenia]

Graeme: So, with the Leopard C1 fully in service, the Centurions would have been 'put out to pasture' (until their sale to Israel is agreed to and/or approved by Ottawa). That would make a kind of sense out of the Teledyne upgrade proposal.

I like your upgrade the Centurions for the Militia idea. Hmmm ...

[Edit] I saw one source that claims that the Leopard C1 purchase was conditional upon Krauss-Maffei take the Canadian Centurions as 'trade-ins'. If true, Israel bought those Centurions from German brokers - not directly from Canada. Anyway, only a minor fly in any whiffing ointment 

[Gingie]

Like the Swedes Strv 104 Centurion - officially MBT role phased out by Leopard 2 in 1992, yet, some Strv-104 were still in service as late as Y2K!