Non self propelled artillery and howitzers as well as mortars

[GTX_Admin]

To start off:

[Weaver]

Handy for the shopping.....

[arkon]

Can't carry a whole lot of rounds in that.😝

[LemonJello]

If fired as it is in that photo, still hitched to the car, would it rip the tail-end of the car off, or just drive it down into the ground? 

"Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there..."

**Poof**

"No. You're NOT covered for that Ahmed."

[Rickshaw]

If fired as it is in that photo, still hitched to the car, would it rip the tail-end of the car off, or just drive it down into the ground? 

"Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there..."

**Poof**

"No. You're NOT covered for that Ahmed."

It would likely snap the towing pintle.

[Volkodav]

If you did it with a Bitsareshiti Triton Ute (pick up) you would crack the chassis were the shock absorbers attach to it and drop the whole rear off the vehicle.  I suppose that's why Hiluxes are preferred.

[Weaver]

Whole thing, including the ammo, seems home-made. or at least small machine-shop made. I wonder what it's range/accuracy performance is like? One thing that limits home-made guns of all sizes is the general inability of non-specialist equipment to machine rifling, but that doesn't apply to most mortars.

I don't see much in the way of sights on it, but they may be carried in the car to avoid damage.

[jcf]

Syrian Free Army, more in this blog post:
https://milinme.wordpress.com/2013/03/26/civil-war-in-syria-19-war-continues-on/

Ex-Syrian forces fighting against the Assad government and ISIL etc.

[perttime]

Whole thing, including the ammo, seems home-made. or at least small machine-shop made. I wonder what it's range/accuracy performance is like?...

I don't see much in the way of sights on it, but they may be carried in the car to avoid damage.

Accurate range cannot be very long, not to speak about accurate rate of fire over any distance.

The baseplate looks pretty small, so it would sink a lot on every shot. The means for leveling don't look very handy. The mortars that I have fired also had some shock absorbers between tube and bipod - which helps when you want to get a number of shots on target in a specified time, over a few kilometers. If any delicate sighting device with optics and bubble levels are used, it makes sense to make it detachable.

If the ammunition is any good, it will cause quite a bit of damage if you can get it to come down near some soft targets.

[Weaver]

Always thought these were a good bit of kit: the French Thompson-Brandt RT-61 rifled 120mm mortar. Didn't know the USMC used them until I went looking for this pic though:


"Mor120" by www.esercito.difesa.it. Licensed under CC BY 2.5 via Wikimedia Commons


"M327 120mm Mortar" by Corporal Michael Oxton, United States Marine Corps. Licensed under Public Domain via Wikimedia Commons

Wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortier_120mm_Ray%C3%A9_Tract%C3%A9_Mod%C3%A8le_F1

Amazingly, it even has it's own youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIjf5QcsRp_8RLwseGiAuYQ

[perttime]

When I was using mortars, the 120 mm was still considered a Battalion/Brigade level Infantry weapon.
This one is a little more modern version:


(Wikimedia image)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/120_KRH_92

Designed to be fired without the wheels, the new one looks like it is easier to get out of firing position than the older ones. Assuming an advanced enemy, you don't want to hang around after your last shot... It takes a bit of a crew to operate one. For 12 to 15 rounds per minute, you want a couple of strong guys carrying more shells to the loader, and you need two to lay it: one aiming and one leveling (keeping 2 bubbles centered). For shorter ranges, we'd walk the fire a bit, to cover a 100x100 meter square for a 60 second strike.

edit:
found an action photo on a magazine site:



http://www.suomensotilas.fi/fi/artikkelit/tulivoima-kasvaa

[jcf]

Toys, these are real mortars. 

[Weaver]

When I was using mortars, the 120 mm was still considered a Battalion/Brigade level Infantry weapon.

Whether 120s belong in the Infantry or the Artillery is one of those never-ending debates. The French used to have them in infantry batallions but have now transferred them to the artillery.

Designed to be fired without the wheels, the new one looks like it is easier to get out of firing position than the older ones.

The RT-61 is towed by a lunette, i.e. a towing ring that fits in the muzzle, so it doesn't need any more carriage than what you see. I've also read that if the base plate is stuck in the mud, two guys can swing on the lunette to lever it up.

[Weaver]

Toys, these are real mortars. 

Bet you can't tow one behind a VAB though.....

[jcf]

Toys, these are real mortars. 

Bet you can't tow one behind a VAB though.....

Nothing about portability or mobility in the thread title. 

But, you could tow a VAB behind these:



12" mortars on Model 1918 carriages. 

[perttime]

Designed to be fired without the wheels, the new one looks like it is easier to get out of firing position than the older ones.

The RT-61 is towed by a lunette, i.e. a towing ring that fits in the muzzle, so it doesn't need any more carriage than what you see. I've also read that if the base plate is stuck in the mud, two guys can swing on the lunette to lever it up.

I figured as much. Is its rate of fire so slow because it is rifled, or because the wheels get in the way of loading? Another thought is that turning it around takes more time, in case you need to defend your own position against an enemy sneaking on you from behind.

Toys, these are real mortars. 

Bet you can't tow one behind a VAB though.....

My thought exactly.

[dy031101]

If, say, I need an explosive charge of around 5kg in a HE projectile, what is the most compact howitzer and/or direct-fire-capable mortar I can use?

===================================================================

I heard online that Switzerland actually came up with a direct-fire capable 105mm mortar during WWII.  I can't seem to find anything on such a mortar, however; would anyone be able to shed light on this one?

Thanks very much.

[M.A.D]

Toys, these are real mortars. 

Bet you can't tow one behind a VAB though.....

Nothing about portability or mobility in the thread title. 

But, you could tow a VAB behind these:



12" mortars on Model 1918 carriages. 

Wow, as an ex mortarman, I'd hate to imagine the over-pressure of these things when firing, with their stubby barrels!
I'm guess the old keeping of the mouth open when firing just isn't going to jut it 
Oh well, at least there's no digging in the baseplate!!

M.A.D   

[perttime]

If, say, I need an explosive charge of around 5kg in a HE projectile, what is the most compact howitzer and/or direct-fire-capable mortar I can use?

I don't quite understand what you want to accomplish.

I didn't find good mortar shell specifications - but generally they seem to have pretty small amounts of explosive, being optimized for generating a lot of horizontally flying shrapnel to wipe out soft targets.

You can launch shells of different weights and lengths out of the same mortar tube. Heavier shells just have less range.

A mortar, with base plate on the ground or light(ish) vehicle, tends to favour shooting at elevations above 45 degrees. That gives relatively long flight times. If you want to go below 45 degrees, you are probably better off with something else. If you are close enough to the target, to see it through your mortar's aiming device, you are in trouble.

[Gingie]

If, say, I need an explosive charge of around 5kg in a HE projectile, what is the most compact howitzer and/or direct-fire-capable mortar I can use?

That's roughly the weight of an 81mm HE round

<-- ex 81mm mortarman back in the olden days.

[dy031101]

I don't quite understand what you want to accomplish.

See here.

As was said there, I want the hull-mounted gun to have good explosive power; a 10H64 analog was chosen because it's essentially a larger counterpart of PAW-600, which uses modified mortar bombs, and I was told that mortar bombs tend to carry more explosive than howitzer of comparable calibre.  I just found out yesterday that Nebelwerfer 35, whose bombs are likely to be modified for use with 10H64, has up to almost 5kg of explosives for HE payload (apparently there are plenties of Wgr. 40 shells for plenties of ordnances, what I found doesn't seem to be for the mortar that I mentioned).

If, say, I need an explosive charge of around 5kg in a HE projectile, what is the most compact howitzer and/or direct-fire-capable mortar I can use?

That's roughly the weight of an 81mm HE round

<-- ex 81mm mortarman back in the olden days.

You sure that's the weight of the explosive filling rather than the weight of the whole shell?

[Gingie]

total weight around 5 kg. 5kg of HE...that's maybe double+ what a 120mm carries.

[dy031101]

total weight around 5 kg. 5kg of HE...that's maybe double+ what a 120mm carries.

Actually, after having another go at info browsing over the internet...... I'm no longer certain if I really can lob 5kg of explosives from any 105mm artillery,whether howitzer or mortar......

I think I might even entertain the idea of just settling with a 105mm howitzer instead.

How much of explosives does a HE shell for modern 120mm tank gun carry?

==================================================================

And I now have two more questions:

• If a StuH 42 is to be rearmed with the same 152mm gun-launcher of Sheridan tank, how many rounds of ammunitions can be carried?
• What sort of modification other than just mounting it on a carriage would conversion of that gun-launcher into a towed artillery involve?

Thanks in advance.

[Story]

Armored metal horse drawn carriage armed with a Krupp-Schuman Model 1899 57mm gun. Used by the Central Powers during World War I, then taken as spoils of the Hellenic army from the Bulgarian army in 1918.



Walk-around gallery
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=aNMZcKni&pccid=9YZfAp2F&id=39DD56EA0A3F1F05E5ACD7A8D26DA3BC25F5F9D9&pmid=2809BF049C6A2127AAE9FF889C472A3A6B6D7BC2&psimid=608033865905669812&pimgurl=http%3a%2f%2fi.imgur.com%2f74mPpWV.jpg&ppageurl=http%3a%2f%2fi.imgur.com%2f74mPpWV.jpg&iss=VSI&selectedIndex=3&count=35&adlt=strict

Particulars on the gun, more-or-less
http://www.waroverholland.nl/index.php?page=57-mm-infantry-gun-6-veld

[GTX_Admin]

Dalek Mk 1