Beyond The Sprues

Modelling => Completed GBs => Group and Themed Builds => Naval GB => Topic started by: Buzzbomb on October 07, 2021, 05:45:25 PM

Title: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Vosper X-2 - Finished
Post by: Buzzbomb on October 07, 2021, 05:45:25 PM
Much, box top removing and and replacing has gone on with two kits around this GB
(https://www.modelblokez.org.au/bthpix/whatif/ships/Hydro/Hydro_0.JPG)

However, the Vosper looks like it has come out ahead in my hand wringing.

I plan on doing a Hydrofoil used in the WW2 timeline
Nothing further yet, just a glimmer of an idea of a high speed torpedo boat
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Name may change
Post by: The Big Gimper on October 07, 2021, 10:05:30 PM
The great grandson of AGB's HD-4 hydrofoil?

(https://keyassets.timeincuk.net/inspirewp/live/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2015/07/Alexandra-graham-bell-HD-4-copy.jpg)
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Name may change
Post by: Frank3k on October 08, 2021, 12:13:28 AM
The "Chen Yuen" was build in Germany, so it could pass for almost any ironclad of the era.

The Vosper hydrofoil would look good - especially if you add airplane engines!
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Name may change
Post by: Old Wombat on October 08, 2021, 12:36:07 AM
Vosper already had 3 x RR Merlins, how many aircraft engines do you want! :o
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Name may change
Post by: MAT on October 08, 2021, 02:01:45 AM
The "Chen Yuen" was build in Germany, so it could pass for almost any ironclad of the era.

The Vosper hydrofoil would look good - especially if you add airplane engines!

What? Who? When? Where?
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Name may change
Post by: jcf on October 08, 2021, 02:31:23 AM
Vosper already had 3 x RR Merlins, how many aircraft engines do you want! :o

The Vosper used three Packard 4M-2500 V-12s, which was the
standard engine in UK MTB/MGB and US PT-Boats. The Merlin
was not used in any of these boats.

https://uscrashboats.org/cpage.php?pt=15 (https://uscrashboats.org/cpage.php?pt=15)

(https://www.pt-boat.com/packard/images/packard1.gif)

Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Name may change
Post by: jcf on October 08, 2021, 04:51:32 AM
Are you thinking ladder foils or surface piercing "U-foils" ala Supramar?

The original Bras d'Or foil development vessel built for the Canadians by
SARO (Saunders-Roe) had ladder foils.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51563465630_aed2b9ef78_o.png)
http://dave-mills.yolasite.com/saro-hydrofoil-bras-dor.php (http://dave-mills.yolasite.com/saro-hydrofoil-bras-dor.php)

SARO explored a number of concepts, something like the conventional design with four-sets of foils
might have promise for your Vosper based boat.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51563227279_8e8f3dbd5e_o.png)
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Name may change
Post by: Buzzbomb on October 08, 2021, 06:48:09 AM
Are you thinking ladder foils or surface piercing "U-foils" ala Supramar?

One of them or possibly something that looks like them. Or not. No idea yet, just a thought bubble at the moment.

Although overnight the thought of the Ironclad as the Flagship of the Colony of Victoria became a bigger thought bubble. Perhaps Britishify it somehow.
HMVS Collingwood maybe ;D

Things might change and the box lid removing/replacement cycle might start again.
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Name may change
Post by: Buzzbomb on October 11, 2021, 04:31:57 PM
Just one more boring day in lockdown, (sung to the tune of "One more boring night in Adelaide" by Redgum... sorry Guy ;) )

Got into the Vosper and I know the kit is showing its age and all, but really it is not that nice to build so far. See exhibit A with all the clamps. Also stripping card for the Hydrofoils
(https://www.modelblokez.org.au/bthpix/whatif/ships/Hydro/Hydro_1.JPG) (https://www.modelblokez.org.au/bthpix/whatif/ships/Hydro/Hydro_2.JPG)

Shaping the airfoil section (seafoil ?? ) got to work with the basic fit out
(https://www.modelblokez.org.au/bthpix/whatif/ships/Hydro/Hydro_3.JPG) (https://www.modelblokez.org.au/bthpix/whatif/ships/Hydro/Hydro_4.JPG)

Scratchbuilt 6 Pounder mount (which needs a slightly smaller diameter barrel) and a pre loved Oerlikon bandstand left over from the Fairmile D MTB build
(https://www.modelblokez.org.au/bthpix/whatif/ships/Hydro/Hydro_6.JPG) (https://www.modelblokez.org.au/bthpix/whatif/ships/Hydro/Hydro_7.JPG)

I figured that I need to get the craft basically built and fully fitted before fitting the Hydrofoils. Of which there will be some cheating, as I plan to mount in a sea base to try and sell the idea more effectively
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Name may change
Post by: Old Wombat on October 11, 2021, 04:42:51 PM
I share your pain with the old Vosper, mine went together like a lot of things that aren't meant to go together when I built this:

(https://photos.smugmug.com/SBS-Fast-Boat/i-kJD7qqv/0/8efdf200/X2/DSCN7642-X2.jpg)
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Name may change
Post by: kitnut617 on October 11, 2021, 09:12:39 PM
(https://www.modelblokez.org.au/bthpix/whatif/ships/Hydro/Hydro_2.JPG)

I'm intrigued with that tool bar you're using, what is it please ?
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Name may change
Post by: apophenia on October 12, 2021, 03:58:32 AM
Yup, your shot with the clamps says it all for that kit  :P

Really liking the look of your gun mounts. Your 6-pounder is the Molins-feed Mark IIA, right?
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Name may change
Post by: Buzzbomb on October 12, 2021, 05:49:49 AM
I'm intrigued with that tool bar you're using, what is it please ?

it is a DAFA Slide Cutter/paper trimmer, a bit further up the food chain to the cheap plastic ones. I like it because the blades are just sections of the larger snap off type box cutter blade, so easy to obtain. It is sturdy enough to cut reasonable plastic card and also works with thick card with a score and snap routine. Much safer than running a heavy blade down a ruler you are holding with your fingers.

Example from the web
https://www.proopsbrothers.com/dafa-slide-cutter-wit-cutting-mat-and-rule--paper-craft-art-hobbies-scrap-booking-c6016-518-p.asp (https://www.proopsbrothers.com/dafa-slide-cutter-wit-cutting-mat-and-rule--paper-craft-art-hobbies-scrap-booking-c6016-518-p.asp)


Yup, your shot with the clamps says it all for that kit  :P
Really liking the look of your gun mounts. Your 6-pounder is the Molins-feed Mark IIA, right?
Correct, fairly common late war fitting on larger MTB, but could be fitted to Vosper as well. Gave the MTB's much greater punch than the previous 2 pounder mount.
I reckon I will change the bandstand to the later Powered twin mount, I have a Coastal Craft version in the stash, so may as well use it and it fits the timeline better and much smaller mount.
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Name may change
Post by: kitnut617 on October 12, 2021, 06:20:25 AM
Thanks for that BB  :smiley:
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Name may change
Post by: finsrin on October 12, 2021, 10:15:49 AM
Looks on track to be quite the boat.  Fascinated to see how this turns out.  Unlike me, you run a ship shape ship yard.  :smiley:
Couple Vospers in stash.  Never took detail look or checked fit.
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Name may change
Post by: Buzzbomb on October 14, 2021, 05:28:17 AM
Reasonably happy with the layout so far. The kit is pretty pedestrian by today's standards, however it did go together quite quickly for exactly that reason.
General Layout so far, still doing the umm and ahh on 4 vs 2 Torpedo tubes, so they have not been addressed yet to fix the seams and awful fit.
The real world late/post war Vospers with 6 Pounders dropped the tubes down to 2, but four looks hunkier, if very busy. I do have 2 x 21" tubes left over from the Fairmile build which might be an alternative option.
Ready ammo lockers still to be fitted as well
(https://www.modelblokez.org.au/bthpix/whatif/ships/Hydro/Hydro_8.JPG)
Ditched the Bandstand Oerlikon mount for the later and more efficient Powered mount. This is courtesy of Coastal Craft models and tricks out very nicely
(https://www.modelblokez.org.au/bthpix/whatif/ships/Hydro/Hydro_9.JPG)
More work on the 6 pounder mount, with Molin autoloader. A lot of the standard deck fittings were moved as the mount takes a bit of room, so shuffling of ventilators was required.
(https://www.modelblokez.org.au/bthpix/whatif/ships/Hydro/Hydro_10.JPG)

Nice shot of the old Sydney Harbour Hydrofoil Ferry. I reckon I will go for a layout like this. So next step, the hydrofoils.
(https://www.modelblokez.org.au/bthpix/whatif/ships/Hydro/Hyrofoil_1.PNG)
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Name may change
Post by: Buzzbomb on October 17, 2021, 12:46:35 PM
Bit of tinkering with the Hydrofoil setup. Not too fussed about the engineering as I plan to put the vessel on a sea base to get the idea across.
I figured that although there are later setups, like the T Shape, this is a bit more old school and maybe contemporary of the period
(https://www.modelblokez.org.au/bthpix/whatif/ships/Hydro/Hydro_11.JPG)
(https://www.modelblokez.org.au/bthpix/whatif/ships/Hydro/Hydro_12.JPG)
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Name may change
Post by: GTX_Admin on October 18, 2021, 01:37:21 AM
And it makes a good stand for the model... ;)
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Name may change
Post by: Dr. YoKai on October 18, 2021, 08:43:28 PM
Indeed, it looks the business so far.
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Name may change
Post by: LemonJello on October 18, 2021, 11:30:07 PM
Looks fast just sitting on its foils...
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Name may change
Post by: Frank3k on October 18, 2021, 11:46:06 PM
It's coming along nicely - the 6 pounder and mount are a beauty.
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Name may change
Post by: jcf on October 21, 2021, 05:35:04 AM
Looks good.  :smiley:

One note, on the 6-pdr equipped boats they removed the fwd. torpedo tubes for weight
and trim issues, and a lack of suitable targets.
 ;)

The German hydrofoils were primarily of the von Schertel surface-piercing V-type, Von Schertel
formed Supramar in Switzerland after the war and the V-type became the dominant type.
http://www.foerderverein-museums-schnellboot.de/s-boote/kriegsmarine/versuchsboote-km.htm (http://www.foerderverein-museums-schnellboot.de/s-boote/kriegsmarine/versuchsboote-km.htm)

 
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Name may change
Post by: finsrin on October 21, 2021, 06:56:00 AM
Is looking great all over.  Super job on scratch built 6 pdr  :smiley:

Those WW2 style foils also look the part.
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Name may change
Post by: Buzzbomb on October 27, 2021, 01:23:43 PM
Well down the track of the painting stage. Sort of keeping in RW zone as far as that goes.
(https://www.modelblokez.org.au/bthpix/whatif/ships/Hydro/Hydro_13.JPG)
(https://www.modelblokez.org.au/bthpix/whatif/ships/Hydro/Hydro_14.JPG)

Decided to bump the front Torpedo tubes after some hand wringing about torpedo launch + Hydrofoil proximity/Speed=Kaboom !
it all got too hard so went with the rear tubes anyway shorter, deeper Foils, improved launch distance,  stuff like that to rationalize them working.
Actually fits a bit more for the timeline as the RW Vospers with heavier armament did drop the front tubes, also as pointed out elsewhere, there was a lack of suitable targets.
Did add some Thornycroft (or approximation of same) Depth Charge Launchers, which would definitely clear the Hydrofoil zone.
AMS made me replace the radar antenna with wire
Base is in the shop and in drying time, waiting for the deck rail staunchions to dry off before fitting thread, rigging etc etc. Still a bit of a way to go
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Name may change
Post by: finsrin on October 27, 2021, 02:47:11 PM
Bingo -- everything as it should be.  6 pounder mount is its own money shot.  Jon's suggested two torpedoes also a right move.  Aft guns, equipment details, paint scheme are  8)  :-*
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Name may change
Post by: Old Wombat on October 27, 2021, 09:19:02 PM
She's looking really nice, BT! 8)

However, although it may just be the angle, I'm a bit concerned about the (rear) tubes launching into the front foils. :icon_crap:
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Name may change
Post by: Dr. YoKai on October 28, 2021, 12:52:42 AM
She's looking really nice, BT! 8)

However, although it may just be the angle, I'm a bit concerned about the (rear) tubes launching into the front foils. :icon_crap:

 Yeah, I see that too - but that's just a training challenge ;)

 Good looking work - I will be studying the Molins mount for reference.
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Name may change
Post by: Buzzbomb on October 28, 2021, 05:48:44 AM
She's looking really nice, BT! 8)

However, although it may just be the angle, I'm a bit concerned about the (rear) tubes launching into the front foils. :icon_crap:

 Yeah, I see that too - but that's just a training challenge ;)

 Good looking work - I will be studying the Molins mount for reference.

Me too, it was part of the giving up on the whole wringing of hands thing and handing over to the suspension of belief and magic of whiffery.
The total number of actual MTB on Hydrofoils appears to be close to zero, more than likely for exactly this reason. Once embed in the base a lot of the issues we all see will hopefully be out of sight.

Craig if you want actual drawings of the naval Molins mount, I can provide them, I have the most excellent Lambert "Anatomy of the ship"  book on the Fairmile MTB/MGB family which has engineering drawings of all weapons used on this class of vessel. My version is a rough rudimentary approximation of those.
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Name may change
Post by: jcf on October 29, 2021, 08:36:54 AM
Another thought is, I wonder if you might have a risk of running into your torpedo before it got up to
speed?
 :-\

Perhaps the technique would be to slow the boat and drop back down to hull borne, but still planing,
before launching the torpedoes, just long enough to launch and then turn away accelerating back to
being foil borne. Basically come in fast, suddenly slow, then turn and speed away.
 ???
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Name may change
Post by: Buzzbomb on October 29, 2021, 08:41:28 AM
Another thought is, I wonder if you might have a risk of running into your torpedo before it got up to
speed?
 :-\
I have decided that in this build universe, the magic of whiffery has decreed that the boffins have come up with a way to extend the distance a torpedo will launch so it is outside foil zone.
Also the torpedoes may have become secondary armament due to the heavier 6 pounder mount due to your valid point about lack of viable targets.

Buildwise, on a bit of a roll.

Moving onto the base. It is a foam base, with some sculptamould base texture. This was allowed to dry then a couple of sheets of blue crepe paper was laid over the entire thing and then wetted down with diluted white glue, which added further "wavy" texture and a more merged surface.
(https://www.modelblokez.org.au/bthpix/whatif/ships/Hydro/Hydro_15.JPG)

After that had dried, the next step was a quick coat of paint to check it out and then starting to pack in more crepe paper around the hydrofoil business, only with water at this stage, because my logic says, I should be able to still remove it. We shall see if logic wins over reality
(https://www.modelblokez.org.au/bthpix/whatif/ships/Hydro/Hydro_16.JPG)
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Name may change
Post by: Old Wombat on October 29, 2021, 02:27:49 PM
 ;)
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Name may change
Post by: GTX_Admin on October 30, 2021, 02:02:10 AM
 :smiley:
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Name may change
Post by: apophenia on October 30, 2021, 02:39:00 AM
Very cool approach to modelling moving water  :smiley:
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Name may change
Post by: Dr. YoKai on November 01, 2021, 01:14:19 AM
Very cool approach to modelling moving water  :smiley:

Indeed - I will have to try that for the base for the Revenant. Really liking the colors overall.
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Name may change
Post by: kitnut617 on November 01, 2021, 01:41:32 AM
You probably have this covered so please excuse a dumb question:  If the boat is on it's foil (hull out of the water), shouldn't there be a wake coming off the foil legs at the point of exit of the water ?
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Name may change
Post by: Buzzbomb on November 01, 2021, 04:46:44 AM
You probably have this covered so please excuse a dumb question:  If the boat is on it's foil (hull out of the water), shouldn't there be a wake coming off the foil legs at the point of exit of the water ?

Work in progress... last couple were just progress shots. I am out of Gel medium for the water, so when I get that in the next day or so, we can go for the next stage, which will indeed include wake... lots of wake.
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Name may change
Post by: Old Wombat on November 01, 2021, 04:20:39 PM
A real "Wake Up!" ............................... ??? ................. ::) ............ [Exit stage left]
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Name may change
Post by: Buzzbomb on November 05, 2021, 06:31:43 PM
Well that's about it. Call it done for what it is.
I got to thinking about pulling off both torpedo tubes and creating a Destroyer type rotating mount, like this (thanks for the pic shapeways).. but only a triple mount, trash the Oerlikon mount
(https://images1.sw-cdn.net/cdn-cgi/image/quality=85,gravity=auto,format=auto,fit=scale-down,width=1920/product/picture/710x528_23273654_12881956_1525139646_1_0.jpg)

Luckily, I then decided. Nup, for the intended purposes, it will do. Not quite sure about the dumbflow exhaust outlet attempt. With them on
(https://www.modelblokez.org.au/bthpix/whatif/ships/Hydro/Hydro_17.JPG)
With this beam side off. Leaning toward off as getting this water/exhaust mix to look any good appears to be rather a challenge
(https://www.modelblokez.org.au/bthpix/whatif/ships/Hydro/Hydro_18.JPG)

Couple more beauty shots
(https://www.modelblokez.org.au/bthpix/whatif/ships/Hydro/Hydro_19.JPG)
(https://www.modelblokez.org.au/bthpix/whatif/ships/Hydro/Hydro_20.JPG)

thanks for dropping by and the excellent discussion on this topic.
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Vosper X-2 - Finished
Post by: Old Wombat on November 05, 2021, 08:26:05 PM
That looks great, BT! 8) 8) :smiley:



I'd lose the side fountains, they just don't look right. :-\

Plus, with the hydrofoil, where are you getting that much water to pump out anyway? ???
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Vosper X-2 - Finished
Post by: Frank3k on November 05, 2021, 10:50:28 PM
The boat looks fast and menacing and the water surface looks realistic, but I agree with Guy - the water fountains don't make sense and detract from the sense of speed.
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Vosper X-2 - Finished
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on November 05, 2021, 11:08:44 PM
<snip>
Luckily, I then decided. Nup, for the intended purposes, it will do. Not quite sure about the dumbflow exhaust outlet attempt. With them on
<snip>
With this beam side off. Leaning toward off as getting this water/exhaust mix to look any good appears to be rather a challenge
<snip>
I do like your on-foil display and that 2-pr is quite fetching. 

The one image showing the stream of fluid being ejected from the engine exhaust seems a bit excessive and that also brings up the question of where is the water intake for the exhaust located when the hull is foil borne?  Maybe replace the fluid stream with a puff of steam/exhaust by using something with a very fine fibre such as a piece of cotton ball for example. 

Other than that, great work! 
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Vosper X-2 - Finished
Post by: GTX_Admin on November 06, 2021, 02:21:37 AM
 :smiley:
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Vosper X-2 - Finished
Post by: Buzzbomb on November 06, 2021, 04:58:21 AM
Thanks Team, I totally agree the exhaust stream does not work. It will be fully removed. Not that this model will be seen anywhere else much. Might replace some pix though with them gone

Plus, with the hydrofoil, where are you getting that much water to pump out anyway? ???

I figured that the intake pipe could quite easily be within the Hydrofoil supports, not that different to the skeg that was the water inlet on my last ski boat.

All in all glad you like how it came out. Except the naff exhaust attempt  ;)
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Vosper X-2 - Finished
Post by: jcf on November 06, 2021, 07:53:20 AM
Vosper built an experimental MTB, the Bloodhound, that had a trainable torpedo tube, the
torpedoman sat astride the tube. It worked but it was heavy so the concept was never
carried forward on any production boat. The boat was later used in torpedo development
work.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51657731158_a4e1273f7f_o.png)
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Vosper X-2 - Finished
Post by: finsrin on November 06, 2021, 08:26:49 AM
Right on in every way.   Am I impressed or what?   Water is a build in its own right and to think clouds showed up at time of picture.  :smiley:  8)
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Vosper X-2 - Finished
Post by: finsrin on November 07, 2021, 02:59:58 PM
Vosper built an experimental MTB, the Bloodhound, that had a trainable torpedo tube, the
torpedoman sat astride the tube. It worked but it was heavy so the concept was never
carried forward on any production boat. The boat was later used in torpedo development
work.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51657731158_a4e1273f7f_o.png)

Good catch Jon  :smiley:
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Vosper X-2 - Finished
Post by: Robomog on November 09, 2021, 01:48:30 AM
Nice build, love the water effect.

Mog
>^-.-^<
Title: Re: WW2 era Hydrofoil - Vosper X-2 - Finished
Post by: kitnut617 on November 09, 2021, 03:37:13 AM
Yeah! that has come out very well   :smiley: