Police and Law Enforcement Vehicles

[Jeffry Fontaine]

This topic is the result of my comments made in the Kinetic Models discussion about the 1:35th scale Kinetic 4X4 MRAP kit that is now out and available for consumption. 

With the draw down of U.S. and NATO forces in Afghanistan and the previous live fire contest in Iraq now at an end there has been some mumbling in the media about the availability of surplus military vehicles such as the MRAP and other purpose designed vehicles used for countering the land mines and improvised explosive devices placed along many of the lines of communication in both countries that were taking a heavy toll on a vehicle that was never intended to be used for such purposes.  That vehicle was the HMMWV which eventually saw a much modified and upgraded version of the vehicle that had more armour which in turn required a much more powerful engine, suspension, and drive train  to deal with the additional weight placed on the vehicle.  The HMMWV was never intended to be an armored personnel carrier but it was employed as such with poor success, the damage to the vehicle and the loss of life and casualties created were not good for PR or morale. 

The solution to the problem was to acquire special purpose designed vehicles that were available commercially and these vehicles were quickly acquired by U.S. and NATO forces to perform the mission of patrolling lines of communication and convoy escort.  These same vehicles are now becoming available as surplus equipment that can be acquired by any government agency at no cost save for the fuel to drive it home.  While some may frown on this practice and claim it is just one more step towards a totalitarian police state that employs armored vehicles against the populace it also makes good fiscal sense to be able to acquire heavy duty emergency equipment for what I hope are emergencies.  The fact that the MRAP is 4X4 and able to move cross-country is an asset, no vehicle is ever impervious to a direct and dedicated attack and if someone were bent on taking down an MRAP it can be done with little effort. 

This topic is intended to discuss the potential use of all law enforcement vehicles in real or fictional situations and I implore you all to refrain from politics or chest thumping nationality declarations.  Law enforcement is a crappy job no matter where you live or what language you speak.  Some folks are fortunate to never discharge their side arm while on duty but others are not so fortunate. 

:) Fair call, I am out of useless tid bits on the topic anyway, sorry for my part in the derailing.

Not placing blame on anyone but myself.  Never gave one thought to adding that snippet about the law enforcement acquisitions of surplus military equipment, was more or less suggesting that there could be more than just an armed convoy escort to be made from the kit.  I have seen several images of this vehicle type in police emergency vehicle livery and aside from removing the heavy machine gun there was additional flashing light bars added along with the usual law enforcement agency logo/paint scheme.  For other possibilities you could always have it as part of the entourage escorting some rich oil company executive.  :)


So with the above preamble now in place to establish the theme of this discussion I now include the comments from the original discussion:

Michael Benolkin has an in-box review of Kinetic's new 1:35th scale 4x4 MRAP AFV (kit number 61011) available for your viewing pleasure at CyberModeler. 



This is the vehicle that has been in the news of late as one of the "war surplus" items that are being acquired by many local law enforcement agencies for their special response units (aka SWAT).

Michael Benolkin has an in-box review of Kinetic's new 1:35th scale 4x4 MRAP AFV (kit number 61011) available for your viewing pleasure at CyberModeler.

This is the vehicle that has been in the news of late as one of the "war surplus" items that are being acquired by many local law enforcement agencies for their special response units (aka SWAT).

Either the criminals in the US have gotten a whole lot worse or the police over there are going a little over the top...

There are some inner city places that get pretty rough but I think most are concerned with situations like the bank robbery shoot out in LA a few years ago that went on for hours. The two perps had AK-47s and incredible amounts of ammunition and enough body armor for a whole platoon.

Is there a kit of this vehicle, the RCMP use a version for their armed confrontations --  A couple of years ago some kid holed himself up with a load of guns not far from where I live, this vehicle was used to ram its way through the front door of the house.  It's Canadian built and the first time I heard about it was from Barry (John Howling Mouse), he said he wanted to get one to go with his real Hummvee

Knight KV

There are some inner city places that get pretty rough but I think most are concerned with situations like the bank robbery shoot out in LA a few years ago that went on for hours. The two perps had AK-47s and incredible amounts of ammunition and enough body armor for a whole platoon.

And the SWAT teams stuck on the wrong side of the resulting traffic jam, saw a doco on it a few years ago.  From memory it was over within in minutes of SWAT getting there, every LAPD patrol vehicle has had an assault rifle on board since.

Homeland Security mentality plays a part too. The whole "we have to be ready for the end of the world" way of thinking. I think the US military should mothball them out in the boneyard next to all those aircraft to use in the next low intensity war we get into. Police will get rid of them eventually when they figure out how expensive these vehicles are to operate.

[Old Wombat]

A lot of people forget that the police, like the military, have certain roles they are required to perform extremely rarely &, yet, they must be prepared for them. One of these roles is armed response to extremely well-armed offenders, sometimes on a large scale; another is counter-terrorism.

Armoured vehicles have a role to play in these situations. One option is to bring in the military but the problem here is that the people operating those vehicles, in most Western countries, do not have the legal authority to engage in civil policing matters.

Counter-terrorism is somewhat different, as many countries (especially those with non-paramilitary police) have a specialised military unit trained to co-operate with various state & national police agencies (British SAS, Australian SASR, etc.). These units are often "pre-deputised" as part of the police forces they may be expected to operate alongside to bypass the often long & tedious process of "deputising" them for one event or enacting martial law on order to allow the military to operate in civil policing matters.

I think the Bushmaster PMV would be a good vehicle for these roles.

Paint it blue!



Of course, another option is for the police to buy a vehicle designed from the ground up to suit their purposes in one package.

[Weaver]

Of course it's nothing new for police forces to have armoured vehicles, whether ex-military or from the "internal security" marketplace, particularly in the USA where potential miscreants can build up impressive arsenals. Quite a few PDs had LAV-150s and a few even had M113s, so getting in a lather about these latest sales is really missing the point.

I do wonder though whether it's short-sighted of the military to sell these off so fast, as if they don't need them any more. What sort of conflicts do they think they'll be involved in tomorrow? Far more likely the asymetric insurgent/terrorist affairs these were built for rather than a "proper" war. It was pretty poor watching US troops in Iraq improvising gun-trucks with hillbilly armour in 2003 that were practically indistinguishable from the ones there were improvising in Vietnam 30 years earlier. It would be equally poor to see western militaries scrabbling around for mine -protected vehicles in the face of an IED campaign in five year's time....

[Gingie]

EPS Grizzly about a half klick from my house in Edmonton:



Will post more pics of EPS Grizzly, New Glasgow Cougar, and RCMP TAV-III and M-113 when I get home tonight. I'll also take some pics at CANSEC this year as they typically have some LE vehs on display.

[Gingie]

TAV-II



NGRPS Cougar

[Gingie]

[jcf]

Armoured boxes are for wimps.

[raafif]

Yes, armoured boxes are for whimps !
My cousin tells of his first days with the Flying Squad - the unit were given very heavy equipment in the form of revolvers & one shotgun in addition to their truncheons to winkle out London's Kray & Richardson gangs .... who preferred small knives & finger-nails but were known for nasty work with firearms, axes etc...

His later trips past soviet establishments in East Germany were luxurious in a almost standard RangeRover armed with a camera & biro against AK74s, Spetznaz boots & truck rammings.

[Rickshaw]

I think part of my problem is perceptions as to what sort of society the US has.  It is, as far as I am aware quite peaceful except for the occasional problem area but even those are somewhat limited in what sorts of weapons are available - primarily small arms.  RPGs and IEDs are not available.   Although, I wonder with the return of so many veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan whether IEDs might feature more in the future?

However, leaving that point aside for the moment,  one has to wonder about the devolving down to backwoods police departments these sorts of vehicles.  Sure, they look cool but are they really required?  How likely is a major criminal or terrorist event in such locations?  What is occurring is IMHO a dangerous militarisation of the police in the US.  Yes, some inner-city police departments might require some of these vehicles but does every police department?  I'd suggest for most police departments, giving the police officers a pushbike might be better for not only their own health but their relations with the communities they are policing.

Then, as has been mentioned I suspect giving them away is merely the US military getting rid of a scrapping problem.  Most of these police departments aren't going to realise how difficult and expensive it is to maintain specialist military vehicles, particularly as the years progress and spares become increasing difficult to find.

I too believe the US military is falling back into the view that Iraq and Afghanistan were not the shape of what today's wars are increasingly going to be like.  The mentality of Napoleon's "war of the big battalions" is a strong one in the US military.  They saw Vietnam as outside the norm, with the consequence they were ill prepared to fight Afghanistan and Iraq.  It's a lot easier (and better for one's career) to focus on the corporate mindset than it is to consider the unusual and the difficult.  Which is a shame really because the US Military had, before the 20th century a rich history of COIN warfare to draw on.  Something the Generals seem to prefer to forget.

Anyway, US (and it appears Canadian) society seem to like having these things in their vehicle parks.  It means of course they tend to want to use them, which means they get taken out at the first excuse and often cause unfortunate escalations in situations.

Of course, I could be talking out of my hat but thats my two cents worth on the matter.

[Kerick]

I agree with much of what you said. I must say that many smaller police departments do not have the money to support such vehicles so they might do some wishful think but pass on it when reality sets in. Many communities have cooperative agreements on such thinks as heavy vehicles and helicopters and such.

By far the largest problem in some communities is small arms and the attitude that shooting someone will solve one's problems. I don't see anything more coming on the scene any time soon. Since 9-11 the big problem everyone is worried about is another large scale terrorist attack. Some of these vehicles may be useful but the trick is having them in the right place at the right time.

I agree the US military is going right back to the WW3 mentality again. Not only with these vehicles but with things like dumping the A-10 in favor of a smaller number of F-35s. I'm sure no one talked to any of the soldiers or Marines coming back after their third or forth tour to get their opinion on that.

I do like the LAV or Grizzly law enforcement vehicles. If a water rescue is needed they can just drive right into the water and pull someone out.

[Weaver]

RPGs and IEDs are not available.

Point of order: IEDs are always available, if you're smart and determined enough.

[Rickshaw]

RPGs and IEDs are not available.

Point of order: IEDs are always available, if you're smart and determined enough.

Point taken but they aren't used in inner-city downtown USA as far as I'm aware...

[Old Wombat]

Doesn't the LAPD have a couple of A-10s?

Wouldn't surprise me, they seem to have everything else but, as I said before;

Are we talking about using A-10's as a means of putting an end to all these dangerous police car chases, or what?

[Kerick]

Police departments have been acquiring military vehicles for quite awhile. The wheeled MRAP is better than some big city departments that used M-113s years ago. At least MRAPs won't tear up the streets.



MOD EDIT: removed A-10 related content

[Weaver]

RPGs and IEDs are not available.

Point of order: IEDs are always available, if you're smart and determined enough.

Point taken but they aren't used in inner-city downtown USA as far as I'm aware...

Day-to-day no, but then AFVs arn't used for routine traffic stops either. The reason most police departments want these things is for the exceptional situations like riots or and civil breakdown. What's the first thing that gets thrown in a riot? Well, rocks, to be honest, but if the riots goes on long enough (like a couple of hours) and/or the police manage to hack the rioters off enough, then the next thing is frequently one of Mr.Molotov's finest.

Now that's just a riot, which even the participants will agree is a spontaneous and temporary state of affairs: no one prepared for it beforehand or, once it kicked off, started preparing on the assumption that it would go on for weeks and months. Sustained civil breakdown caused by factors that won't go away quickly (economic collapse, natural disaster) is another matter however. If the situation does look like going on for months or years, then people will feel free to arm themselves with whatever they think they need, and after hand weapons (or guns in the USA) then next step up is bombs, and there's a million ways to make those.

[ChernayaAkula]

   MOD ANNOUNCEMENT: Pruned the thread a bit and moved the A-10 discussion to a separate thread HERE.

[Old Wombat]

Thank you! :)

[Gingie]

We're going to see some of those RCMP vehicles deployed in Moncton very shortly.

[Silver Fox]

RCMP armoured vehicles on the streets now. 

Condolences to RCMP Moncton Detachment and the whole RCMP community.

[Old Wombat]

I don't know how the British or Canadian police are organised but US police are, I understand, different organisations in each county, with State & Federal police "above" them but all with different levels of jurisdiction. I see the proliferation of armoured vehicles as a side effect of this fragmented policing structure. Some counties saw a genuine need for these vehicles, while others are merely "keeping up with the Jones'". Then the various state governments obviously realise there is a need for them to have such vehicles for those rare(ish) times they are needed, as does the FBI.

In Australia we have a 2-tiered system, State & Federal. Each of the 6 states has a police force/department, as does the self-governed Northern Territory (it still ain't a state). The Australian Capital Territory & the Indian Ocean Territories (Christmas Island & the Cocos (Keeling) Islands) are policed by the Australian Federal Police, who have jurisdiction on all Commonwealth land (including airports) & in relation to certain crimes involving international & intranational activities. Several state police forces have armoured vehicles, as do the Federal Police, but not many - not even for our miniscule population.

Actually, I think the Bushmaster would made a decent armoured situation command vehicle, while something like an M-1117, minus the .50, would make a good operational vehicle (assuming there are 40mm CS gas canister grenades available for the Mk. 19). Wheels are a much better option than tracks for non-military urban use.

[Gingie]

There it is..

[Gingie]

oh man... I just saw this. It looks like they might be using Brinks trucks as an ad-hoc armoured vehicle. Hope they realize it does not provide the same protection as the TAV.

[GTX_Admin]

Actually, I think the Bushmaster would made a decent armoured situation command vehicle,

A Police Bushmaster would certainly look interesting...

[GTX_Admin]

One from Australia:

[jcf]

In the US it is generally municipality, county and then state, there is no federal level
'police' entity. The FBI, DEA, ICE etc. are law enforcement but not 'police'.
The primary role of the state police in most US states is enforcement of traffic laws on the highways and Interstates, they are also used for investigations that may be outside of the ability/experience of the local community police or the local police may be the target of the investigation. Again it varies by state and region and nobody in the US is in a hurry to create a National Police.

I live in the City of Everett, Snohomish County, Washington State so here it is the Everett Police, Snohomish County Sheriff, and the Washington State Patrol. Just north of here is the Tulalip Indian Reservation
next to City of Marysville, so right there it is overlapping jurisdictions of the Tulalip Police, Marysville Police, Snohomish Sherrif, Washington State Patrol, Bureau of Indian Affairs and the FBI.
Confused yet?