Beyond The Sprues

Modelling => Ideas & Inspiration => Aero-space => Topic started by: GTX_Admin on March 05, 2012, 01:52:07 AM

Title: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on March 05, 2012, 01:52:07 AM
Hi folks,

A thread dedicated to your AVRO Lancaster, Manchester and Lincoln (and derivatives - e.g. Shackleton) Ideas and Inspiration.

To start with, I am sure many of you have read/heard that the AVRO Manchester originally had provision catapult assisted takeoff.  But have you ever seen what this might have looked like?  Well look below:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/Avro_Manchester_catapult_page_407_FR_March_1966.jpg)

regards,

Greg
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: raafif on March 05, 2012, 04:54:15 AM
all my Lancaster & Lincoln profiles here ...

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s34/hobgrot/l8.png)

http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=876.0 (http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=876.0)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on March 05, 2012, 09:40:49 AM
As I've mentioned elsewhere, a derivative of the Lincoln analogous to the Lancastrian derivative of the Lancaster.  For cargo-hauling or tanker ops, it'd be a nice move.  You could also add the "Tiger Force" saddle tanks if you needed yet more fuel storage capacity.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on March 05, 2012, 04:17:35 PM
Supposedly the AVRO Manchester was designed to be able to carry two 18 in (457 mm) torpedoes internally.  Has anyone seen a photo with this fit?

More importantly, how about an AVRO Manchester or better yet a Lancaster in Coastal Command garb in a low level torpedo run...
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Maverick on March 05, 2012, 08:32:28 PM
I did a run of Manchesters in 08 & 11 including Coastal Command schemes, Highball bombers & gunships.

Regards,

John
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: sequoiaranger on March 08, 2012, 01:47:02 AM
To fight the last war more effectively, and to control the airspace over the trenches, the Avro Avatar was developed. The four-gun turret below would be able to shoot down into the trenches as the four-gun turret above defended against enemy aircraft. The "Defiant" idea was also envisioned, whereas the Avatar would fly between enemy two bombers, raking them both broadside. Someone got the idea that such an Avatar, or especially a trio of them, could bank in a circle and spray bullets inward and downward---the first "gunship" was invented! When Britain was threatened by Sealion Invasion, the Invasion Defence Command (you can only see the "ID_", not the "C" of the special markings) commandeered every Avatar for strafing the beaches, including a New Zealander squadron (subject of the model).

For this ostensibly 1/72 aircraft, FROG's 1/96 Lancaster (actually two of them) formed the basis . Wellesley engine, B-24 ball turret, Halifax top turret, and other "subtle" modifications.

(http://i681.photobucket.com/albums/vv173/sequoiaranger/Avro-Avatar004-m.jpg)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on March 08, 2012, 02:34:26 AM
 :)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on March 08, 2012, 02:39:44 AM
How about all the Manchesters get re-engined with better engines?  Maybe RR Rriffon or Bristol Centaurus or PW R2800...
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on March 08, 2012, 03:41:50 AM
How about all the Manchesters get re-engined with better engines?  Maybe RR Rriffon or Bristol Centaurus or PW R2800...

I'm actually going a bit further ahead than that Greg, I'm thinking a Manchester with two RR Eagle 24 cylinder 'H' configuration engines, Lincoln outer wings and lengthen rear fuselage.  I've even got all the parts to do a 'Twin' Manchester version of it which will be started sometime this year (had something posted over on the other forum and I'm calling it an Avro Chadderton), this will have three engines and main gear though.

The idea it would be an alternative to the Avro Nottingham ---
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Maverick on March 08, 2012, 06:12:21 AM
How about all the Manchesters get re-engined with better engines?  Maybe RR Rriffon or Bristol Centaurus or PW R2800...

Amongst the Manchesters I did, there were Centaurus and Sabre powered versions.

Regards,

John
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: jcf on March 08, 2012, 08:14:50 AM
(https://photos.smugmug.com/OLDPB/i-hSdcBGS/0/7ef5dad1/O/TYPE_679_2-HERCULES_01.png)
Drawing A.1481 29 April 1937, 2 Hercules.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/OLDPB/i-WTxDvBS/0/31c5bf6a/O/TYPE_679_4-HERCULES_01.png)
4 Hercules proposal from the same period.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/OLDPB/i-vBTN6PW/0/51558f99/O/TYPE_679_2-CENTAURUS_01.png)
Proposal for Centaurus engined Manchester II, one airframe had Centaurus installed by Bristol, but never flew.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: apophenia on March 08, 2012, 11:28:01 AM
Great stuff Jon, thanks! I had no ideal that the Manchester II had actually been built.

kit': Love the Nottingham  :)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on March 08, 2012, 05:04:28 PM
Great stuff Jon, thanks! I had no ideal that the Manchester II had actually been built.

kit': Love the Nottingham  :)

Wot he said...
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on March 09, 2012, 11:58:33 AM
Just for argument's sake, how would the Manchester have looked and faired with two W3420's installed?  I'm thinking that they would've made a distinct difference (I can also see RR doing everything they could to prevent such).
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: finsrin on March 09, 2012, 12:48:26 PM
Avro Avatar - another cool concept and bash build - gets five smileys -  :) :) :) :) :)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on March 09, 2012, 10:24:44 PM
Just for argument's sake, how would the Manchester have looked and faired with two W3420's installed?  I'm thinking that they would've made a distinct difference (I can also see RR doing everything they could to prevent such).

Had to go look that one up Evan ---  :-[

I think that would be an excellent choice   :) , although all the engines planned for the Manchester were supposed to be around 2000 hp, I think they found it wasn't enough power for a large twin engined aircraft.  Hence my thoughts of going to the 3500-4000 hp Eagle.  On my Twin-Manchester I'm thinking three of these with 16 foot contra-props and the Nottingham is powered by four of them with Wyvern contra-props.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on March 10, 2012, 03:01:02 AM
On my Twin-Manchester I'm thinking three of these with 16 foot contra-props and the Nottingham is powered by four of them with Wyvern contra-props.


Hmmm...a Manchester powered by two Armstrong Siddeley Pythons....mmmm

These might help give an idea of what such a creature may have looked like:

(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a94/WtMiller/IMG_0044.jpg)
(http://www.verdon-roe.co.uk/images/IMAGE_1268082707203.jpg)
(http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/Braas/9314L.jpg)

Regards,

Greg
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on March 10, 2012, 03:05:24 AM
Another option is to turn some of the various jet testbed Lancs into operational bombers...say, they had jets added to give that extra boost in over target speed maybe:

(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i176/Mossie105/Aircraft/LancasterMetrovickF2Testbed02.jpg)
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i176/Mossie105/Aircraft/LancasterMetrovickF2Testbed01.jpg)
(http://www.ozatwar.com/lancastrian.jpg)
(http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/2928/jbavroghostlancaster38ik.jpg)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: sequoiaranger on March 10, 2012, 03:49:01 AM
Yeah, maybe have a jet/flamethrower set in a moveable nozzle to thwart those "Schrage Muzik" Ju-88's lurking below you!!
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on March 10, 2012, 07:41:09 AM
I've got one of those Python FTB's on the go too, just have to dig it out of the project box and get on with it sometime.

Oddly, I thought I posted this here some time ago
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on March 10, 2012, 09:02:47 AM
Twin 4360s on a post war Canadian Lanc.   
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: apophenia on March 10, 2012, 11:08:42 AM
Just for argument's sake, how would the Manchester have looked and faired with two W3420's installed?  I'm thinking that they would've made a distinct difference (I can also see RR doing everything they could to prevent such).

I had a bash but don't think it really works. One issue is the props lining up with the cockpit side windows ... and no room to move the engines aft. Probably the R-2600 was the best bet for the times.

BTW: image modified from one by Terry Hadler for Profile Aircraft No.260
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on March 10, 2012, 12:03:11 PM
No, props in the plane of the cockpit are not a good idea, as the Black Widow proved with every gear-up landing they made.  Ah, well, it was a nice idea.  A pusher-prop version perhaps?
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: apophenia on March 10, 2012, 12:13:03 PM
Yes, excellent example. One possibility would be lengthened engine bearers matched with an extended rear fuselage (à la Lincoln) for balance.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: jcf on March 10, 2012, 04:09:11 PM
Another problem with the W3420 when compared to the Vulture is weight:
3275 lbs vs. approximately 1800. So for an aggregate improvement of around 900 hp at max output,
base airframe weight increases by almost 3000 pounds. The 3420 is also much larger dimensionally.

The Sabre was looked at early on, but was ruled out just as quickly due to its teething problems
and supply bottlenecks.

Two-stage or turbo-supercharged R-2800s along with the high-output Hercules models, including the turbo versions
are also other possibilities to look into.

R-3350 is out due to its own development and production problems.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: apophenia on March 11, 2012, 07:13:56 AM
The Lanc itself just looks better and better doesn't it  ;D
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: finsrin on March 11, 2012, 03:24:19 PM
Jet in tail or jets under wings, cool stuff.  8)
After seeing pictures - first thing came to my bashing mind was F-16 intake scoop on rear fuselage top with F100 or F110 or similar in tail.
Then it joins the 400+ MPH club.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on March 13, 2012, 12:53:59 PM
Vietnam?
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on May 27, 2012, 06:54:41 AM
4 3350's to avoid the Merlin fee and designed to deliver plenty of Napalm across the pond 1967.

4 Allison V-1710's for US and Canadian coastal patrol, both oceans but principally the Atlantic theater.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 27, 2012, 07:05:40 AM
Vietnam?

Maybe some RAAF Lincoln Mk31s operating in an air sea rescue role with underbelly lifeboat?
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 09, 2012, 05:46:51 AM
Late one night a Lancaster and a B-17 got down and dirty...

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/More%20Creations/b17lanc.jpg)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Alvis 3.1 on June 11, 2012, 08:16:33 AM
http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal1/401-500/gal415_Fortcaster_Petrie/gal415vsm.htm (http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal1/401-500/gal415_Fortcaster_Petrie/gal415vsm.htm)


I need to redo it in 1/48, using the Tamiya Lanc...


Alvis 3.1
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 11, 2012, 12:50:16 PM
Outstanding
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ysi_maniac on June 11, 2012, 11:01:47 PM
To fight the last war more effectively, and to control the airspace over the trenches, the Avro Avatar was developed. The four-gun turret below would be able to shoot down into the trenches as the four-gun turret above defended against enemy aircraft. The "Defiant" idea was also envisioned, whereas the Avatar would fly between enemy two bombers, raking them both broadside. Someone got the idea that such an Avatar, or especially a trio of them, could bank in a circle and spray bullets inward and downward---the first "gunship" was invented! When Britain was threatened by Sealion Invasion, the Invasion Defence Command (you can only see the "ID_", not the "C" of the special markings) commandeered every Avatar for strafing the beaches, including a New Zealander squadron (subject of the model).

For this ostensibly 1/72 aircraft, FROG's 1/96 Lancaster (actually two of them) formed the basis . Wellesley engine, B-24 ball turret, Halifax top turret, and other "subtle" modifications.

([url]http://i681.photobucket.com/albums/vv173/sequoiaranger/Avro-Avatar004-m.jpg[/url])


Nice and creative model.
 :-* :-* :-* :icon_alabanza:
Underpowered maybe.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ysi_maniac on June 11, 2012, 11:06:23 PM
Speaking about FROG's 1/96 Lancaster, can any of you suggest me which engine can be/look if I scalorame one of those 1/96 nacelles to 1/72?
This is to say a 75% of a RR Merlin in each dimension.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on June 11, 2012, 11:32:38 PM
Speaking about FROG's 1/96 Lancaster, can any of you suggest me which engine can be/look if I scalorame one of those 1/96 nacelles to 1/72?
This is to say a 75% of a RR Merlin in each dimension.

Anything powered by a RR Kestral Carlos, which seems to be about .8 smaller than a Merlin
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: sequoiaranger on June 11, 2012, 11:50:05 PM
>Underpowered maybe.<

No "maybe"--DEFINITELY!! But, "underpowered" only if trying to compete with fighter aircraft or fast bombers. This Avatar is a dowdy aircraft meant for "buzzard"-like cruising whilst raining down little .303 pellets of lead on hapless troops below. The only way it could be "Defiant-like" to rake a bomber formation would be diving from great height to gain the requisite speed (and indeed, in the more complete backstory, this happens).

BTW, ysi_maniac....I *THINK* I have the spare 1/96 "Merlins" from the Avatar build---are you interested?
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ysi_maniac on June 12, 2012, 03:04:43 AM
BTW, ysi_maniac....I *THINK* I have the spare 1/96 "Merlins" from the Avatar build---are you interested?
Thanks a lot for your offer. But I already have that 1/96 Lancaster.

Possible receptor of those Kestrels: 2 for a Westland whirlwind, 2 for DeHavilland Comet.
Afterwards, scaloramed Lancaster can be equipped with a pair of radials.
THINKING
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: jcf on June 12, 2012, 04:23:01 AM
In terms of external dimensions the Kestrel and Merlin series are actually pretty close, the big difference is in cubic
displacement and weight.

Kestrel(unsupercharged):
Length 66.72"; width 24.4"; height 39.4"; weight 840 lbs.
Displacement 1,296 cu in.

Kestrel(supercharged):
Length 69.82"; width 24.4"; height 37.53"; weight 950 - 970 lbs.
Displacement 1,296 cu in.

Merlin (single-speed supercharger):
Length 69"; width 29.8"; height 41.2"; weight 1,375 lbs.
Displacement 1,637 cu in.

Merlin (two-speed supercharger):
Length 71"; width 29.8"; height 43.0"; weight 1,450 lbs.
Displacement 1,637 cu in.

Merlin (two-speed, two-stage supercharger):
Length 88.7"; width 30.7"; height 40.0"; weight 1,550 - 1,750 lbs.
Displacement 1,637 cu in.

All figures are from British Piston Aero-engines and Their Aircraft by Alec Lumsden,
and reflect the basic dimensions of each family. The actual dimensions, particularly
length, varied by specific engine sub-type.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on June 12, 2012, 06:31:19 AM
I was picking dimensions off wikipedia Jon, and they were as follows

Kestral        Merlin      Size Difference (Kestral size divided by Merlin size)
L 74.61       L 88.7        .8 (roughly)
W 24.41     W 30.8       .79
H 35.63      H 40           .89

Which could be interpreted as being .8 smaller for the Kestral which is close to Carlos' 75% smaller engines (72 divided by 96)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: jcf on June 13, 2012, 01:12:43 AM
Hi Robert,
the Merlin dimensions on wikipedia are for the two-speed, two-stage supercharger family i.e. Merlin 60, Packard V-1650 and related types.

The Lancaster used Merlin XX-series engines in the two-speed supercharger Merlin family.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: tc2324 on July 26, 2012, 11:52:58 PM
USAAF Lanc....

(http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/tc2324/006.jpg)

.....  and a KG200 `captured` one.......

(http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/tc2324/037-1-1.jpg)

Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 27, 2012, 03:49:27 AM
 :) :)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on August 27, 2012, 10:55:54 AM
Ted Taylor (Ted's Modelworks) (http://tedtaylor.hobbyvista.com/) has been building a 1/32nd scale model of Lancaster B.Mk.I 'S for Sugar' from a kit offered by Hachette Part works that is quite impressive.  The build so far is divided into part one (http://tedtaylor.hobbyvista.com/157-big-lancaster/page-157-lancaster.html) and part two (http://tedtaylor.hobbyvista.com/158-big-lancaster-2/page-158-lancaster-part-2.html) and I am impressed with the amount of detail crammed into this model that for all intents and purposes is built like the real aircraft.

Click on image to go to Ted's main page

(http://tedtaylor.hobbyvista.com/157-big-lancaster/cover.jpg) (http://tedtaylor.hobbyvista.com/)
(Image source: Ted Taylor/Ted's Modelworks (http://tedtaylor.hobbyvista.com/))

Link to Hatchette Parts Works Lancaster Bomber (http://www.hachettepartworks.com/our-titles/lancaster-bomber) kit page at Hatchette Part Works. 
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ysi_maniac on November 28, 2013, 12:12:06 PM
Were there any airliner derivative of Shackleton?
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: PR19_Kit on November 28, 2013, 05:28:05 PM
The build so far is divided into part one ([url]http://tedtaylor.hobbyvista.com/157-big-lancaster/page-157-lancaster.html[/url]) and part two ([url]http://tedtaylor.hobbyvista.com/158-big-lancaster-2/page-158-lancaster-part-2.html[/url]) and I am impressed with the amount of detail crammed into this model that for all intents and purposes is built like the real aircraft.


Unfortunately there won't be a Part 3 or any other parts as Ted died last month, sad to say.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ysi_maniac on November 29, 2013, 07:17:13 AM
 :( Sad to know, really! :(
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: apophenia on November 29, 2013, 11:40:23 AM
Were there any airliner derivative of Shackleton?

The Shackleton and Avro Tudor airliners are intimately linked. Maybe proposed Tudor follow-on projects would qualify?
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ysi_maniac on November 29, 2013, 01:17:07 PM
Proposed Mk 4 http://avroshackleton.com/mark4.html (http://avroshackleton.com/mark4.html)

My proposal is more based in Mk 4 than in Avro Tudor

(http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/Drawing/shackleton_liner.jpg) (http://s1080.photobucket.com/user/ysi_maniac/media/Drawing/shackleton_liner.jpg.html)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: PR19_Kit on November 29, 2013, 05:55:14 PM
My proposal is more based in Mk 4 than in Avro Tudor

With Napier Nomad or Wight Turbo Cyclone engines?

That's a cracking model in the top link you posted, and he's right about the serial no. he chose, it's in the middle of a 'black out block' for Gnat T1s!  :)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on November 29, 2013, 11:08:06 PM
A model I've been planning for quite a while now too Kit.  A few years ago Hannants had a sale of just 'bagged' Shackletons, GBP8.00 each (no decals or instructions).  I bought six or seven of them.  You need two just for the fuselage and I'm swiping the engines from a Constellation for it, although I've been trying to find pictures of the Nomad installation as I wouldn't ming doing it that way.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on November 29, 2013, 11:11:00 PM
Proposed Mk 4 [url]http://avroshackleton.com/mark4.html[/url] ([url]http://avroshackleton.com/mark4.html[/url])

My proposal is more based in Mk 4 than in Avro Tudor



The MR.4 Carlos, was to have Avro Vulcan main gear (which can also be found on the Short Belfast)  ---- your's would look neat if it had the 'eight' wheel truck instead of the double wheels.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: PR19_Kit on November 29, 2013, 11:45:32 PM
.....I've been trying to find pictures of the Nomad installation as I wouldn't ming doing it that way.


Napier only flew one aircraft with the Nomad, a Lincoln according to some sources, but others say a Shackleton Mk 1. The only pic I've ever seen of the installation was in the nose of a Lincoln, see below, which I found on a CAR Forum, for goodness sake. It's not all that indicative of how it would have looked in a Shackleton though.

I'm not sure about that captioning either as the Nomad I used a contra-prop and the Nomad II used standard props.

(http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/9927/hc3m.jpg)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on November 30, 2013, 12:11:50 AM
Yes I found numerous pics of the FTB Kit, but apparently there is one or two of the Shackleton installation.  Someone posted a pic of it but do you think I can find it again --

EDIT: a bit later --

Found this, just had to juggle the search phrase ---  In that Shackleton website, it says that the MR.4 would have had leading edge radiators between the inner & outer nacelle (which is where I got the idea for my Nottingham [bottom pic]), so the Nomad nacelle would possible be quite stream-lined with a large air intake under it for the exhaust turbine (sort of thinking like an early P-38 in style).

EDIT: even later --

If you look carefully at the Nomad installation, you can see a portion of the leading edge radiator ---
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: PR19_Kit on November 30, 2013, 02:05:11 AM
I'd not seen that pic of the Shackleton installation before Robert, well done. It looks remarkably simple for a VERY complex engine.

I'd have loved to have heard a Nomad I in flight, better still four of them. It'd have had a deep rumble like a sawn off Deltic engine, overlayed with a turbine howl as well! TU-95s eat your heart out!  :)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on November 30, 2013, 02:14:57 AM
Of interest too, is the overhead engine hanger bracket --

I have a feeling the nacelle could have looked like this below but without the exhaust shrouds --


Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on November 30, 2013, 02:37:23 AM
No, I was wrong, according to this (see Nomad II), the cowlings were fitted very tightly around the engine and had blisters over the cylinder heads ---

http://avroshackleton.com/nomad.html (http://avroshackleton.com/nomad.html)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on November 30, 2013, 03:32:01 AM
I'm tempted to build up a radial Lancaster in USAF SEA nighttime markings some day.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: PR19_Kit on November 30, 2013, 04:33:20 AM
No, I was wrong, according to this (see Nomad II), the cowlings were fitted very tightly around the engine and had blisters over the cylinder heads ---

[url]http://avroshackleton.com/nomad.html[/url] ([url]http://avroshackleton.com/nomad.html[/url])


VEEERY interesting!  :)

I see the FTB Nomad I Lincoln flew at Farnborough in '51, but I was there and I can't remember it. Maybe that was one of the years we went on the Saturday and they sometimes limited the displays on the public days compared to the weekdays. 4 x Merlins + 1 x Nomad would have sounded superb!
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on November 30, 2013, 05:34:42 PM
It looks to me like a simple circular cowl with cutouts for the exhausts, with an annular intake behind the spinner would work quite well as a representative Nomad installation.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on November 30, 2013, 11:48:15 PM
It looks to me like a simple circular cowl with cutouts for the exhausts, with an annular intake behind the spinner would work quite well as a representative Nomad installation.

The exhaust manifolds were plumbed straight into the exhaust turbine situated under the engine which was actually part of the engine Brian, they wouldn't have to have any cutouts -- see my post in Reply #56.  In my Nottingham, the engines are RR H24 cylinder Eagles, the Nomad is similar in layout.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 01, 2013, 02:59:35 AM
How about an operational version of something like these ....to give more over target speed perhaps?

(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i176/Mossie105/Aircraft/LancasterMetrovickF2Testbed02.jpg)
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i176/Mossie105/Aircraft/LancasterMetrovickF2Testbed01.jpg)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 01, 2013, 03:36:36 AM
More re the Nomad fit for the Shackleton:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/V-22/shacknomad.jpg)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 01, 2013, 03:40:06 AM
Slightly larger pics of proposed Shack' variant with R3350s:

(http://web.archive.org/web/20080627184623im_/http://users.bigpond.net.au/Shackleton/mk4plan.jpg)
(http://web.archive.org/web/20080627184623im_/http://users.bigpond.net.au/Shackleton/mk4view.jpg)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on December 01, 2013, 04:10:55 AM
More re the Nomad fit for the Shackleton:

([url]http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/V-22/shacknomad.jpg[/url])


What's interesting is something I discovered while planning and researching the De Havilland DH.101 build I'm doing (albeit very slowly), DH was told they wouldn't be getting the motors they had designed the aircraft around, and this happens to coincide with the time that English Electric bought out Napier, lock, stock & barrel.  So really this Nomad is an EE design.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: PR19_Kit on December 01, 2013, 04:58:37 AM
Erm, in the same fashion that an MD97 is a Boeing design perhaps? All the Nomad engineering work was done at Napier's Luton site and EE was effectively a holding company at the time.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on December 01, 2013, 05:39:00 AM
Not really Kit, EE started building aircraft in 1922, during the war and before they bought out Napier in 1942, they had built 770 Hampdens and hundreds of Halifaxes
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: PR19_Kit on December 01, 2013, 06:32:07 AM
I'm not saying they didn't, I'm saying that the Nomad was pure Napier engineering. In the same way the Deltic engine owed nothing to English Electric's input in the railway field.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on December 01, 2013, 07:42:09 AM
It looks to me like a simple circular cowl with cutouts for the exhausts, with an annular intake behind the spinner would work quite well as a representative Nomad installation.

The exhaust manifolds were plumbed straight into the exhaust turbine situated under the engine which was actually part of the engine Brian, they wouldn't have to have any cutouts -- see my post in Reply #56.  In my Nottingham, the engines are RR H24 cylinder Eagles, the Nomad is similar in layout.

So, just a simple circular cowl with an annular intake...
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on December 02, 2013, 01:30:49 AM
It looks to me like a simple circular cowl with cutouts for the exhausts, with an annular intake behind the spinner would work quite well as a representative Nomad installation.

The exhaust manifolds were plumbed straight into the exhaust turbine situated under the engine which was actually part of the engine Brian, they wouldn't have to have any cutouts -- see my post in Reply #56.  In my Nottingham, the engines are RR H24 cylinder Eagles, the Nomad is similar in layout.

So, just a simple circular cowl with an annular intake...

That's my take too, I'll just copy the Nottingham' nacelle shape but taper the front down so I can use a smaller diameter spinner, more like the Shackleton spinner to the Wyvern ones I used on the Nottingham. I think it would need a slight bulge under the nacelle where the rear end of the exhaust turbine lies with the exhaust exiting at the end of it.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 02, 2013, 03:13:07 AM
Guys, you aren't basing your assessments upon this pic are you:

(http://web.archive.org/web/20080627184623im_/http://users.bigpond.net.au/Shackleton/mk4view.jpg)

Because, as clearly stated above, that is a R3350 powered variant.

With respect to the Nomad powered variant, perhaps one can derive something from looking at the lines (engine wise) of the Lincoln powered testbed:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/Nomadnonetest_zps34bcf05a.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/Nomad2airtest_zpsef4d2c01.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/LincolnNomad_zps927f05c3.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/45263339Mystery_zps8648ed96.jpg)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 02, 2013, 03:14:55 AM
Another basis for a jet boosted Lanc/Linc...

(http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/Visschedijk/7318.jpg)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: PR19_Kit on December 02, 2013, 03:40:37 AM
Interesting Nomad Lincoln pics there.

It looks like the exhaust duct was baised to starboard on the 3rd pic down, and also that only the diesel bit was running at the time. The rear prop was driven by the diesel, the front prop by the turbine if that doesn't make any sense.

The cowling on the Lincoln would hardly be typical of the Shackleton MR4 installation though, part perhaps from the prop and the deep belly underneath, the turbine bit of the Nomad I being underneath the diesel bit.

Noteworthy that it's flying ONLY on the Nomad in the 4th pic, but then it was supposed to have the about twice the power of a Griffon I guess.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 02, 2013, 03:47:31 AM

The cowling on the Lincoln would hardly be typical of the Shackleton MR4 installation though,



I agree, hence why I only said "...perhaps one can derive something from looking at the lines (engine wise) ...", specifically by looking at this photo:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/Nomadnonetest_zps34bcf05a.jpg)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 02, 2013, 03:52:33 AM
BTW, if you look closely you will see two intakes (one on either side) of the Lincoln nose.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on December 02, 2013, 03:57:16 AM
I think that is because of the under-engine frame support Greg, it sort of blocks the direct line to the intake of the compressor.  On the Shackleton set-up, they went with a 'hanger-type' frame so you wouldn't need the bifucal intake of the FTB.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 02, 2013, 04:00:13 AM
Fair point.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: PR19_Kit on December 02, 2013, 05:34:36 AM
BTW, if you look closely you will see two intakes (one on either side) of the Lincoln nose.

Those look bizarre, very small for the horsepower and remarkably crude! An annular intake surrounding the prop would have made much more sense I'd have thought.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Queeg on December 19, 2013, 07:45:03 AM
My take on a modifed Lanc ....... I'm almost tempted to try and build this for my '46 British.

(http://i1259.photobucket.com/albums/ii548/Queeg2/Project%2046/whfashoqsoperlanc10_zps570106be.jpg) (http://s1259.photobucket.com/user/Queeg2/media/Project%2046/whfashoqsoperlanc10_zps570106be.jpg.html)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: PR19_Kit on December 19, 2013, 01:44:38 PM
How about adding 4 x Griffons, just to ensure it stays airborne?
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Queeg on December 19, 2013, 03:18:03 PM
How about adding 4 x Griffons, just to ensure it stays airborne?

Ahhh don't underestimate the mighty Merlin. The 66 put out around 1600hp, the last Merlins design for the Sea Hornet were pushing 2000hp.
In comparison the the Cyclone and the Twin-Wasp of the Fortress and Liberator maxed at around 1200hp.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 19, 2013, 04:37:33 PM
Take the same fuselage but lose the guns and turrets and H2S radar but add in refuelling hose...result:  AAR Lanc!
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Queeg on December 19, 2013, 04:49:05 PM
Take the same fuselage but lose the guns and turrets and H2S radar but add in refuelling hose...result:  AAR Lanc!

Yeah, that'd be interesting! Maybe some Spits or Mossies with some sort of fueling probe ...... wonder how that would look/work.
It'd also look good in a Maritime scheme ....... or maybe it could carry a Tallboy internally? Modified airlaunched Bloodhound even ....
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on December 19, 2013, 11:54:44 PM
Take the same fuselage but lose the guns and turrets and H2S radar but add in refuelling hose...result:  AAR Lanc!

Yeah, that'd be interesting! Maybe some Spits or Mossies with some sort of fueling probe ...... wonder how that would look/work.
It'd also look good in a Maritime scheme ....... or maybe it could carry a Tallboy internally? Modified airlaunched Bloodhound even ....

The Lanc' did carry the Tallboy internally ---

I think if I was going to do something like your profile, I would go half above the wing (level with the top of the original canopy) and half below it (smooth out the bottom of a bulged bomb bay)  then maybe you could carry a Grand Slam internally
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Logan Hartke on December 19, 2013, 11:56:20 PM
Maybe he was thinking about the Grand Slam?

Cheers,

Logan
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on December 19, 2013, 11:58:52 PM
Beat me by a millisecond Logan   ;D
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Old Wombat on December 20, 2013, 12:21:04 AM
Take the same fuselage but lose the guns and turrets and H2S radar but add in refuelling hose...result:  AAR Lanc!

Or keep the nose & tail turrets in case (Gods forbid!) your flying fuel tank ran into fighters. :o

:)

Guy
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Queeg on December 20, 2013, 02:02:55 AM
The Lanc' did carry the Tallboy internally ---

I think if I was going to do something like your profile, I would go half above the wing (level with the top of the original canopy) and half below it (smooth out the bottom of a bulged bomb bay)  then maybe you could carry a Grand Slam internally

Yeah I knew it was one of them and took a stab, should've looked it up obviously .........

I might try a mid or high wing to see what it looks like. The low wing looks racy imo, about as racy as a thing this size can be, sort of Orion precursor but without the sleek looks.  I thought tricycle undercarriage too .......
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on December 20, 2013, 03:53:46 AM
I might try a mid or high wing to see what it looks like. The low wing looks racy imo, about as racy as a thing this size can be, sort of Orion precursor but without the sleek looks.  I thought tricycle undercarriage too .......

That's called a Shackleton  ----    ;)

check out reply #9 in this thread --
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on September 13, 2014, 09:42:17 PM
GAF built Lincolns but flew US built Liberators during the war, why not GAF or DAP as it was then, building Lancasters during the war, as Canada did, then follow the with Lincolns and then Shackletons? 

There could even be a bomber version of the Shackleton that GAF builds from the late 40s before building the MPA Shackleton instead of the Lincoln Mk31.  Both could be built in improved versions through the 50s for the bomber and into the 60s for the MPA incorporating advanced compound engines then turboprops as well as improved weapons, systems, sensors etc.  The bomber would eventually be replaced early 60s with V Bombers while the MPA would be replaced with a jet MPA in the 70s or even the 80s.  There could be a multitude of special variants, AEW, ESM, even attack versions developed for COIN in the maritime and littoral environment during the Malayan Emergency and Indonesian Confrontation but then successfully employed over Vietnam.

The Canberra would still have entered service but as a replacement for the Mosquito, Beaufighter and Beaufort while the Lincoln, Shackleton and Shackleton like bomber would have been replacements for the wartime heavies and Sunderlands, i.e. a larger more diverse RAAF. ;)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 14, 2014, 08:35:06 AM
What about an AVRO Lancastrian or York with the wings and engines of an AVRO Lincoln or Shackleton ...possibly even going to the tricycle undercarriage of later Shack's?
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on September 14, 2014, 07:40:19 PM
Why not and then get GAF to build that as well for RAAF transport sqns as well as QANTAS and ANA
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on September 14, 2014, 08:18:07 PM
What about an AVRO Lancastrian or York with the wings and engines of an AVRO Lincoln or Shackleton ...possibly even going to the tricycle undercarriage of later Shack's?

Isn't that essentially what an AVRO Tudor is?
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 14, 2014, 09:23:47 PM
Partially...except the Tudors for the most part had RR Merlins
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 14, 2014, 09:25:52 PM
Does anyone produce a kit or conversion of the York, Lancastrian or Tudor in 1/48?
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on September 14, 2014, 11:11:51 PM
The wing of the Tudor is a Shackleton wing, and a Shackleton wing is not like a Lincoln wing. It just looks similar.  The Lincoln wing originates from the Manchester wing. This had the engine nacelle spaced from the fuselage so a 16 foot prop could be installed on the Vulture engines (they never got the engine developed far enough to do this so the biggest prop diameter used was about 14 feet). When the Manchester was redesigned to except four Merlins, this inner wing was left as it was and it followed suit on the Lincoln. Even though the outer wing was progressively lengthened, the wing tip height to the ground remained the same which led to the dihedral angle being reduced from Lancaster to Lincoln. This dihedral starts just outboard of the inner nacelles.

The Shackelton wing was designed for 12'-6" /13'-0" diameter props from the start which reduced the distance between the engine nacelle and the fuselage side and the dihedral starts on the center line of the inner nacelles. However, the Shackleton's fuselage is 8 feet wide compared to the Manchester/Lancaster/Lincoln 6 foot wide fuselage. This makes the overall span of the Lincoln and Shackleton wings about the same.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 18, 2014, 09:01:53 AM
One I wasn't aware of but which fits the bill:  Avro 695 Lincolnian

(https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7154/6432189041_c134c30521_b.jpg)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on September 18, 2014, 09:50:06 PM
You could also do that to a Shackleton, and as it's got a wider fuselage (and later tri-gear) would make more sense
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 23, 2014, 06:19:28 AM
Agreed.  Maybe even have a small rearward dropping ramp for a freighter version.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on September 23, 2014, 06:38:18 AM
I've thought about sticking Shackleton wings/tail on a York and making it tri-gear, plus re-profiling the lower fuselage at the rear to accept a ramp
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on September 23, 2014, 08:28:33 AM
I wonder how well a Shackleton wing would go on a Sunderland-esque flying boat hull?
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on September 23, 2014, 11:31:05 PM
I wonder how well a Shackleton wing would go on a Sunderland-esque flying boat hull?

That would be Shetland-size then ---
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on September 24, 2014, 04:56:53 PM
I knew I'd seen a picture.  Not an AVRo design but a Saro one, the P.104 was recce and ASW flying boat project,intended for R2/48 Specification:

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/674/NaYdxP.png)

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/902/HH6TeS.jpg)

Roughly similar wing to a Shack, I believe.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: The Big Gimper on December 24, 2014, 11:39:30 PM
I'll start with:

1. Replace Griffons with R-3350s. Flown by the USN as the PA-1S
2. Replace twin tails with a large single fin
3. Tanker version with drogues

Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: tsrjoe on December 25, 2014, 01:18:27 AM
Turboprops and a nice smart colour scheme like the early Nimrods :)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: upnorth on December 25, 2014, 01:39:26 AM

1. Replace Griffons with R-3350s. Flown by the USN as the PA-1S


I think you might be laying the foundation of a firekiller conversion for the North American market with that, especially if you're going with a tricycle landing gear variant.

Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: mrvr6 on December 25, 2014, 03:44:46 AM
swept wing turboprop?
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 25, 2014, 04:30:28 AM
I'll start with:

1. Replace Griffons with R-3350s. Flown by the USN as the PA-1S
2. Replace twin tails with a large single fin
3. Tanker version with drogues

Errr…check out Reply #63 on Pg 5 of this thread.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 25, 2014, 04:32:22 AM
And speaking of which…

(http://www.panzerfux.de/panzerfux_e/prodpic/1-72-Avro-Shackleton-MR-2-Sanger-Model-SAN-132_b_0.JPG)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on December 31, 2014, 04:00:17 AM
Something interesting I came across in Stewart Wilsons Lincoln, Canberra and F-111 in RAAF Service, was that Lawrence Wackett was a member of the group assigned to tour and report on the best options for a new combat aircraft to be manufactured in Australia from 1944/45.  Apart from identifying the Liberator as the best option for the RAAF, but pointless to produce locally due to production rates in the US, Wacket suggested a version of the Lancaster with two stage supercharged Merlins and.50 defensive guns would be a suitable type for the RAAF, this is basically what the Lincoln was.

What was really interesting was his follow up suggestion, that after 100 two stage Merlin Lancasters were built, production should switch to a higher powered version using a license manufactured version of the Pratt & Whitney R-2800 Double Wasp.  Now just imagine that a late war RAAF Lancaster III with three or four twin .50" cal turrets and four massive Double Wasp radials, that would be an interesting wiff build.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 31, 2014, 12:51:33 PM
I have something similar planned...
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on December 31, 2014, 01:59:01 PM
It was interesting that Wackett basically pre-empted the Lancaster IV / Lincoln and also was pretty spot on about US built Liberators being suitable for the RAAF.  They had initially been sent to look at twin engined medium bombers but determined that there were no new ones available with all existing types actually being attack aircraft rather than bombers with the Beaufighter, Mosquito and, potentially, CA-11 covering that range of missions quite adequately.  Still the A-26C (later B-26) would probably have served quite well.

Apparently up to twenty four Tudors were meant to be built locally as well as the Lincolns with 12 Tudor IIs actually being ordered.  It is interesting that the government of the day were under the impression that the Lancaster  / Lincoln was equivalent or superior to the B-29 were Wackett was more pragmatic in that he believed Australian industry at that point would not have been capable of fabricating its pressurized fuselage.

The post war plan for the RAAF was quite interesting, 16 squadrons, made up of 3 heavy bomber, 2 long range fighter, 1 heavy bomber / reconnaissance, 1 tactical reconnaissance, 4 interceptor (citizen), 1 target towing, 1 survey, 1 search and rescue, and 2 transport.  The Lancaster / Lincoln, Tudor, or York and possibly Shackleton could have covered off 6, possibly 7 (including SAR) of the squadrons for quite a substantial production run. It would be interesting to know what the RAAFs thoughts were for the different squadrons. i.e. was the Mustang the long range fighter (is this what the DH Seahornet was evaluated for?) or the interceptor (perhaps this was initially the Spitfire) and where did the Mosquito and Beaufighter fit in all this?
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kengeorge on March 26, 2015, 11:26:30 PM
Tiger Force.
 
Apologies as it's a bit of a bump.
Here I am asking a question, regarding the RAF's Tiger Force.
I've trawled Google & Wiki for answers, & understandably it's all a bit vague.
So the questions are these-
Does anyone know where the force may have been based, as in islands?
Who could be the CO?
If anyone could point me in the right direction, as in books or websites or answers, I would be grateful.

Also something has me foncused, 'Range vs Radius of action' what is the difference?
Avro Lancaster I Range: 2,530 mi (2,200 nmi, 4,073 km) with 14,000lb bomb-load? If correct, then radius of action is-1,265 mi (1,100 nmi, 2,036.5 km). Is that right?

Ken.

Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: jcf on March 27, 2015, 01:06:07 AM
Nope, most published numbers just give a max range, and sometimes that is a ferry range number i.e. just fuel
and crew point-to-point. This is also true of max speed and max altitude numbers, they are often what the
airframe is theoretically capable of in clean configuration.

You have to dig to find 'combat load/range/radius' numbers.

B.Mk.I (range)
2,530 miles with 7,000 lbs
1,730 miles with 12,000 lbs
1,550 miles with 22,000 lbs

Here is a telling statistic for the Manchester:
1,630 miles with 8,000 lbs and 1,160 gallons of fuel
1,200 miles with 10,350 lbs and 882 gallons of fuel

The book Halifax by Merrick is nice in that has appendix of the load statistics for the
various marks of the Halibag, and you can really see the tradeoffs of load versus performance.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on March 27, 2015, 04:45:10 AM
There was an article in Air Britain's Aeromilitaria about Tiger Force (it was the bases for my Avro Nottingham project) not long ago, and at the beginning it was a force made up of RAF and RCAF squadrons. Later Australia and New Zealand were to join the force.  The article says that even before the European phase of the war was over, RCAF squadrons were being sent back to Canada to work-up on the Pacific phase and that the plan was to use the Lancaster Mk.IV (which ended up being called Lincolns). Victory Aircraft were just gearing up to produce the Lincoln when the war ended and that the force was to gather on the west coast (in British Columbia). Where they would have operated from wasn't mentioned, but as there was a considerable RCAF presence in the Eleutian Islands, it would make more sense that was where they would have been based and attack Japan from the North. The British side of the Force would have come through China I think (via Burma/India) as my Dad who was with 617 Sqn at the end of the war was in what is called Bangladesh now, at a base called Digri IIRC just after the war had ended ( the atomic bomb attacks putting an end to Tiger Force).
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: finsrin on March 27, 2015, 08:08:32 AM
swept wing turboprop?

1/100 Tu-20 wings !
And,,, letz not forget the Stirling when UK bomber kitbashing.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: The Big Gimper on September 24, 2015, 10:41:52 AM
(http://img04.deviantart.net/3e14/i/2013/051/a/4/avro_lancastor_tree_by_kirovrampager-d5vnbj0.png)

Source: Deviant Art: KirovRampager
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: KiwiZac on December 03, 2015, 06:26:11 AM
There's a lot of chatter among Kiwi enthusiasts about the Hercules and Orion possibly being replaced (moreso the Orion). Relevant to this thread is this post by one of the Wings Over New Zealand forum members:

Quote
I remember the talk of a search for a suitable aircraft while I was at school, before I joined the BES in '64, there was talk of trying to find a flying boat as well as the C-130, I think even the Shackelton was mentioned. A maritime Herc today would be a different bird than 50 years ago.

An RNZAF Shackleton, replacing the Sunderland instead of the Orion. I really, really like this idea, even though the type would be considered obsolete by 1966 (real-world Orion acquisition). Maybe we buy them ten years earlier, and they end up in Orion-style white-over-grey later on...

I was already going to buy at least one Airfix Shack. Make that two.

Anyone have any thoughts on this idea?
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 04, 2015, 02:51:50 AM
There's a lot of chatter among Kiwi enthusiasts about the Hercules and Orion possibly being replaced (moreso the Orion). Relevant to this thread is this post by one of the Wings Over New Zealand forum members:

Quote
I remember the talk of a search for a suitable aircraft while I was at school, before I joined the BES in '64, there was talk of trying to find a flying boat as well as the C-130, I think even the Shackelton was mentioned. A maritime Herc today would be a different bird than 50 years ago.


An RNZAF Shackleton, replacing the Sunderland instead of the Orion. I really, really like this idea, even though the type would be considered obsolete by 1966 (real-world Orion acquisition). Maybe we buy them ten years earlier, and they end up in Orion-style white-over-grey later on...

I was already going to buy at least one Airfix Shack. Make that two.

Anyone have any thoughts on this idea?


Personally I think the Shack would have been a retrograde step.  Re the flying boat option see answer here:  http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=1926.new#new (http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=1926.new#new)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: KiwiZac on December 04, 2015, 02:58:18 AM
YOU'RE a retrograde step! *runs to bedroom and slams door*

The SAAF machines weren't delivered until 1957 so, timewise, I think it works. The Shin-Meiwa idea is a cool one, though...
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 04, 2015, 03:05:21 AM
YOU'RE a retrograde step! *runs to bedroom and slams door*
;D
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: jcf on December 04, 2015, 03:40:51 AM
Neither Schack nor Shin Meiwa for the Kiwis, go for a Double-Mamba powered Superfreighter derived
patrol aircraft.
;D  :icon_fsm:
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 04, 2015, 04:00:36 AM
Or zero lifed, re-engined turbo Sunderlands...
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: jcf on December 04, 2015, 04:57:36 AM
Or zero lifed, re-engined turbo Sunderlands...

It would probably be cheaper to design and build a new aircraft.  ;D
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 04, 2015, 05:15:50 AM
Bah!! Reality. ;)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on December 04, 2015, 09:50:26 AM
Or zero lifed, re-engined turbo Sunderlands...

Yeah!

Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: KiwiZac on December 04, 2015, 10:35:25 AM
I saw that build and thought it could be fun...
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on December 04, 2015, 12:11:43 PM
Seafords?

Maybe Shorts could have completed the planned thirty instead of only eight with NZ acquiring a number for a good price.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on October 06, 2016, 06:43:06 PM
Lanc painted with four sharkmouths (Canadian, I believe):

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CuE5FKkWAAAu95P.jpg:large)

From here: https://twitter.com/KifaTwentyfour/status/783970575689670660
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: The Big Gimper on October 06, 2016, 06:55:44 PM
It is the CWH Mynarski Lancaster. They will add temporary markings via decals to recognize other A/C and airmen.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on May 23, 2017, 09:54:39 AM
Does anyone know if any squadron's Lancasters besides those of 617 Squadron were fitted out to carry Tallboy bombs?  Gregory Benford's The Berlin Project has an RAF Lancaster so fitted out, and with a mixed RAF - USAAF crew, dropping a "Little Boy" on Berlin early on the morning of June 6, 1944.  They miss the "amateur painter" but severe enough other connections that the landings and initial moves inland go quite successfully; then things get nasty.

I ask because the US bomb was designed for the same shackles and spacing (found that out at Silver Hill when we visited the Enola gay restoration) as Tallboy.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on May 23, 2017, 01:08:06 PM
Does anyone know if any squadron's Lancasters besides those of 617 Squadron were fitted out to carry Tallboy bombs?  Gregory Benford's The Berlin Project has an RAF Lancaster so fitted out, and with a mixed RAF - USAAF crew, dropping a "Little Boy" on Berlin early on the morning of June 6, 1944.  They miss the "amateur painter" but severe enough other connections that the landings and initial moves inland go quite successfully; then things get nasty.

I ask because the US bomb was designed for the same shackles and spacing (found that out at Silver Hill when we visited the Enola gay restoration) as Tallboy.

9 Squadron (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._9_Squadron_RAF#Second_World_War) was also equipped to carry Tallboys.   An aircraft from 9 Squadron is attributed with the sinking of the Tirpitz in Norway.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on May 23, 2017, 11:43:41 PM
Does anyone know if any squadron's Lancasters besides those of 617 Squadron were fitted out to carry Tallboy bombs?  Gregory Benford's The Berlin Project has an RAF Lancaster so fitted out, and with a mixed RAF - USAAF crew, dropping a "Little Boy" on Berlin early on the morning of June 6, 1944.  They miss the "amateur painter" but severe enough other connections that the landings and initial moves inland go quite successfully; then things get nasty.

I ask because the US bomb was designed for the same shackles and spacing (found that out at Silver Hill when we visited the Enola gay restoration) as Tallboy.

9 Squadron (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._9_Squadron_RAF#Second_World_War) was also equipped to carry Tallboys.   An aircraft from 9 Squadron is attributed with the sinking of the Tirpitz in Norway.

In the book 'Ruin from the Air', it mentions that the USAAF contemplated using the Lancaster for the A-Bombs. The bit the killed the idea was it couldn't get high enough, something that was a problem while Lancasters were dropping Tallboys and Grand Slams. The B-29 when tested with them was able to get to the bomb's design height for maximum effect.

My Dad who served in 617 Sqn while they were using the big bombs, told me that before the Grand Slam was used operationally, they dropped the Tallboy. Once the Grand Slam was in use, the Tallboys were dropped by 9 Sqn.  They also flew in mixed formations to the various targets.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 18, 2017, 03:40:46 AM
Random idea:  Transport version (ala Lancastrian or York) of Manchester.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on June 18, 2017, 03:47:28 AM
Not a Manchester transport but I've been playing with the idea of a Super York. Lincoln or Shackleton wing/engine combo, lengthened fuselage and tricycle u/c
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 18, 2017, 04:15:05 AM
Something different:

(http://www.lancaster-archive.com/pic-lanc-test14.jpg)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kim margosein on June 20, 2017, 10:15:02 AM
Kitnut, are you re-inventing the AVRO Tudor?
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on June 21, 2017, 06:52:55 AM
Kitnut, are you re-inventing the AVRO Tudor?

Nothing of the sort, it will look like a stretched York on tri-gear
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on June 21, 2017, 09:08:02 AM
Kitnut, are you re-inventing the AVRO Tudor?

Nothing of the sort, it will look like a stretched York on tri-gear
So, on tri-gear but still un pressurized?
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on June 21, 2017, 10:03:57 PM
Kitnut, are you re-inventing the AVRO Tudor?

Nothing of the sort, it will look like a stretched York on tri-gear
So, on tri-gear but still un pressurized?

Yup!, basically the idea is if the York was on tri-gear, the underside of the rear fuselage could then be made to have a loading ramp. The profile of it just begs for something like this. The fuselage being stretched would then allow for more freight. I'm thinking of Shackleton style main gear, but then maybe they used a B-24 nose gear or something similar (plenty of those around at the time). What I'd do is have a new fuselage section right where the wing is that was straight, then where the curving up underside of the fuselage starts going forward and backward would then be added to the front and back of the new straight section.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: jcf on June 22, 2017, 01:50:28 AM
Kitnut, are you re-inventing the AVRO Tudor?

Nothing of the sort, it will look like a stretched York on tri-gear
So, on tri-gear but still un pressurized?

Yup!, basically the idea is if the York was on tri-gear, the underside of the rear fuselage could then be made to have a loading ramp. The profile of it just begs for something like this. The fuselage being stretched would then allow for more freight. I'm thinking of Shackleton style main gear, but then maybe they used a B-24 nose gear or something similar (plenty of those around at the time). What I'd do is have a new fuselage section right where the wing is that was straight, then where the curving up underside of the fuselage starts going forward and backward would then be added to the front and back of the new straight section.

Spats like the Miles M.40/41.  ;D

(https://photos.smugmug.com/BTS/i-LB46m2v/0/b0b6d5e4/O/MILES_M40_M41_01.png)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Logan Hartke on June 22, 2017, 02:08:31 AM
It's starting to sound like a baby Beverly.

Cheers,

Logan
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on June 22, 2017, 02:13:50 AM

Spats like the Miles M.40/41.  ;D

(https://photos.smugmug.com/BTS/i-LB46m2v/0/b0b6d5e4/O/MILES_M40_M41_01.png)

I haven't seen that one before Jon, that looks quite good   :)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ysi_maniac on October 08, 2017, 01:39:04 PM
Lancaster and Stirling interchange tails.

(http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/Drawing/lancaster-stirling-.jpg) (http://s1080.photobucket.com/user/ysi_maniac/media/Drawing/lancaster-stirling-.jpg.html)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on October 09, 2017, 01:32:00 AM
Interesting idea
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ysi_maniac on October 09, 2017, 09:22:20 PM
Single tail Lancaster

(http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/Drawing/SingleTLancaster.jpg) (http://s1080.photobucket.com/user/ysi_maniac/media/Drawing/SingleTLancaster.jpg.html)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: jcf on October 10, 2017, 04:33:42 AM
Interesting idea, however it's way too small. Take a look at what was done to convert the B-24/PB4Y-1 to the PB4Y-2,
the Lancaster would require a similar approach.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: finsrin on October 10, 2017, 05:53:13 AM
Interesting idea, however it's way too small. Take a look at what was done to convert the B-24/PB4Y-1 to the PB4Y-2,
the Lancaster would require a similar approach.

Yes it would.  Best check height of your hanger doors for tall tail clearance. 
Understand that tail height is behind why Constellation has three tails.  Read about that back when.
Wonder --- that a factor for B-52 G&H flat top tails ?
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on October 10, 2017, 06:19:06 AM
There are claims the triple tails of the Constellation were inspired by the triple tails of its erstwhile competitor, the DC-4E.

As for the vertical tails on the B-52G/H, I think they went with a wider chord and a lower height to simplify matters as the shorter and wider tail would also be stronger.  If it allowed the aircraft into more hangers, so much the better.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Alvis 3.1 on October 10, 2017, 08:17:17 AM
The B-52 went to shorter, broader tails when they changed to lower altitude operations. The taller tails turned out to be vulnerable to gusting and turbulence. This is also why the F-111 went with a flatter profile tail, instead of the taller type used on the B-58.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on October 15, 2017, 05:19:59 AM
If doing a single tailed Lancaster, I would possibly use the Avro Tudor as a source of inspiration:

(http://imgproc.airliners.net/photos/airliners/6/4/9/2070946.jpg?v=v40)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ysi_maniac on October 15, 2017, 09:46:17 AM
^^^^
... but that tail is so ugly ...  :icon_crap: :icon_killbill:
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: The Big Gimper on May 15, 2018, 02:30:17 AM
Via Facebook. Avro Lancaster with guided surface to air missile PAT-1 (a Henschel Hs 293 developed in Argentina)

(https://scontent.fxds1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/32585690_10155861105217982_9183798916859035648_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=bb2911efadfdacbbcd880846204875d0&oe=5B93CFF8)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 15, 2018, 03:22:03 AM
I assume the PAT-1 is fictional?  BTW, it should probably be Air-to-Surface...
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 15, 2018, 03:27:36 AM
What about a bigger brother to the Avro Lancaster B Mark II - namely a later model Lancaster or even Lincoln but with more powerful Bristol Centaurus engines?
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on May 15, 2018, 03:27:57 AM
Well reading about how the boffins studied the German TV guided missiles, and adapted it to the Tallbot I could imagine something more along these lines
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: The Big Gimper on May 15, 2018, 03:29:14 AM
I assume the PAT-1 is fictional?  BTW, it should probably be Air-to-Surface...

I paste and cut what the artist provided.  ;)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on May 15, 2018, 03:30:19 AM
What about a bigger brother to the Avro Lancaster B Mark II - namely a later model Lancaster or even Lincoln but with more powerful Bristol Centaurus engines?

A Shackleton ------   ???

Or a Nottingham   >:D  This has four RR Eagle H-24 cylinder engines
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: The Big Gimper on May 15, 2018, 03:32:42 AM
Blackbird models has in 1/72 a conversion kit for the MK.VI.  It has chin radiator so you could make a Griffon. 
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on May 15, 2018, 03:35:08 AM
Blackbird models has in 1/72 a conversion kit for the MK.VI.  It has chin radiator so you could make a Griffon.


Or there's the North Star conversions from AiM

http://www.aim72.co.uk/page179.html (http://www.aim72.co.uk/page179.html)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 15, 2018, 04:02:10 AM
(https://www.emodels.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/thumbnail/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/t/a/tam61112.jpg)

+ one of these (of which I have two) less the engines

(https://www.scalemates.com/products/img/8/2/8/1109828-17841-29-pristine.jpg)
(https://www.southernskymodels.com.au/images/prod_img/BMC72007%20Lincoln%20Parts%201.jpg)

+ 4 of these:

(http://www.modeldesignconstruction.co.uk/mall/ModelDesignConstruction/customerimages/products/CV48011.jpg)


+ some of these (or similar) - note roundel with fern frond within the inner red circle:

(http://www.oldmodelsdecals.com/329_500_csupload_69612003.jpg?u=3876985414)(http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/gallery/albums/Canberra-NZ6106/Pair_RNZAF_Canberras_B_4_ads_1.jpg)

+ a bunch of cursing, cut fingers, loss of blood etc...

= AVRO Lincoln V (my fictional designation for proposed Bristol Centaurus) in RNZAF service during Malaysian Emergency...
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on March 22, 2020, 03:46:52 AM
Some interesting info on the rarely seen lower turret:

(http://i.imgur.com/nHleA8J.png)
(http://las-arms.ru/img/tech/vvs/bomber/tactical/lancaster/lancaster-6.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/EosGypF.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/ALT%20RAN%20FAA/lanctur2.jpg)
(http://www.avrosys.demon.co.uk/bomber/lcutawaybw50.gif)
(https://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/GTwiner100/underturret2_zpslcwjdnwm.jpg)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: tankmodeler on March 24, 2020, 04:16:19 AM
Some interesting info on the rarely seen lower turret:
Cool images that I certainly hadn't seen before, Thanks.

All that trouble to design such a system and than to stick it with two pissant .303 Brownings.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on March 24, 2020, 06:29:58 PM
Some interesting info on the rarely seen lower turret:
Cool images that I certainly hadn't seen before, Thanks.

All that trouble to design such a system and than to stick it with two pissant .303 Brownings.

You took the words out of my mouth tankmodeler  ;)

I to have never comprehend the RAF's unwillingness to adopt a heavier and more effective 12.7mm over that of .303.

I wonder how long it took Bomber Command to seriously identify, let alone appreciate the Luftwaffe's knowledge of the volnrability of its heavies undefended underside?


M.A.D
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on March 24, 2020, 11:03:34 PM


I to have never comprehend the RAF's unwillingness to adopt a heavier and more effective 12.7mm over that of .303.



M.A.D

At the time, the government departments were trying to standardize as much as they could to make things cheaper, the .303 round was one of them, made them by the million ----
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: jcf on March 25, 2020, 01:42:47 PM
That turret system was actually pretty lousy, the periscope sighting was a joke, so
heavier guns wouldn't have made any real difference.

Imagine if you would sitting in a pitching and rolling aircraft while staring through
the limited field of view of a periscope at moving things that are below you,
while your seat rotates.

Get the picture?  ;D

The Sperry belly turret on early model B-17Es had the same limitations, that's why
the US went to the ball turret. A Bendix retractable remote control turret was used
on the B-25B through G, but it was most often removed in the field because it was
next to useless.



Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: finsrin on March 25, 2020, 01:49:59 PM
Seconded.   Agree with Jon.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: tankmodeler on March 25, 2020, 10:12:48 PM
The Sperry belly turret on early model B-17Es had the same limitations, that's why
the US went to the ball turret. A Bendix retractable remote control turret was used
on the B-25B through G, but it was most often removed in the field because it was
next to useless.
All very true, but the B-29 and A-26 managed to make their systems work, I thought? And several late-war new designs also fitted remote ventral turrets. Wonder what changed or if it did at all.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on March 25, 2020, 10:30:52 PM
I've read somewhere (and a while ago), that the periscope system made the gunners physically sick when looking through it, vertigo or something ---

I think the belly turret should've been reintroduced though once it was remotely controlled, the gunner sat in the tail.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: jcf on March 26, 2020, 03:30:56 AM
All very true, but the B-29 and A-26 managed to make their systems work, I thought? And several late-war new designs also fitted remote ventral turrets. Wonder what changed or if it did at all.

They were true remote systems, the gunner(s) sat upright with proper sighting and control systems,
they also used an early form of computerized gun laying.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a18343/the-cannons-on-the-b-29-bomber-were-a-mid-century-engineering-masterpiece/ (https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a18343/the-cannons-on-the-b-29-bomber-were-a-mid-century-engineering-masterpiece/)

(https://content.clarkenetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2015/12/B29_Turret_fig2.png)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: tankmodeler on March 27, 2020, 09:07:13 PM
They were true remote systems, the gunner(s) sat upright with proper sighting and control systems,
they also used an early form of computerized gun laying.
I was thinking more specifically about the ventral turrets.The gunners sat upright but were looking below them. Granting that it wasn't through a periscope, which might have made the difference. Computing gunsights would make a big difference in performance, but wouldn't necessarily change the potential for operator disorientation and nausea.

Paul
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 20, 2020, 03:32:34 AM
Interesting photo:

(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/279sqn-asr-iii-releasing-a-lifeboat-jpg.267405/)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on April 20, 2020, 05:33:50 AM
What company built the lifeboat that was carried by the SAR Lancaster? 
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 21, 2020, 01:40:23 AM
What company built the lifeboat that was carried by the SAR Lancaster?


The ones carried by the Lancaster were designed/built by Uffa Fox (the person):

http://www.uffafox.com/uffabiog.htm (http://www.uffafox.com/uffabiog.htm)
https://intheboatshed.net/2008/01/30/uffa-foxs-greatest-memorial-the-airborne-lifeboat/ (https://intheboatshed.net/2008/01/30/uffa-foxs-greatest-memorial-the-airborne-lifeboat/)

(http://www.bbc.co.uk/staticarchive/20e2a575686f897aaa29fe7526aac07733a8dd43)(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/cIC1g01BtajbUeI5valGPf6L71FdtZt9JvmwuHMDsQoLFe0rUMhrw_TKbjBYDqKlyCS6nKG_srYbxyLHz2-rqIsrNfdXp1kZNtzHPnvROn4AjtCWZA)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on April 21, 2020, 02:30:04 AM
Thanks for the information Greg, I knew it was not the Higgins' design. 
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: PlasticMasticator on April 24, 2020, 07:37:01 PM
Can't find any info online, and no literature to hand so question:

Under each Lancaster wing are three large bumps/fairings. Anyone tell me what these are?
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 25, 2020, 03:56:53 AM
I take it that the bumps you are referring to are the 3 streamlined ones seen in the below image:

(https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=https://i.imgur.com/FJ8jfhK.jpg&key=8949642394ab7b40f36982ddbb9f4dc7278f8c749bb9d5116b6682eb898720f5)
(https://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/GTwiner127/Wing31_zpsxtmyw65q.jpg)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: PlasticMasticator on April 25, 2020, 04:57:13 AM
Them's the ones. Can't raise any info, even from cutaways. Any knowledge?
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 25, 2020, 05:02:58 AM
Am researching.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on April 25, 2020, 05:10:58 AM
Based on the location, my guess would be that these bumps are for something to do with the fuel tanks and fuel transfer system between tanks for balance and c/g. 
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: jcf on April 25, 2020, 05:15:30 AM
I agree with Jeff as they're directly below each tank.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 25, 2020, 05:23:37 AM
I agree but have been trying to get confirmation.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: PlasticMasticator on April 25, 2020, 08:38:16 AM
I'd agree with that...I was thinking maybe something jury-rigged when the wing was extended to fit the four merlins. Speed of design over eloquence, so to speak.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on April 25, 2020, 09:41:48 AM
Looks like an aerodynamic fairing over a pump installed from the underside of the wing with some elements of the pump extending below the plane of the mounting flange.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 26, 2020, 03:15:38 AM
Based on this I would definitely say that they correspond to the fuel pumps:

(http://www.ian.com.au/contact/images/lancaster/fuel.jpg)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: jcf on April 26, 2020, 03:57:45 AM
There are Lancaster tech sources that state the Lanc had immersed fuel pumps, so I'd guess that
the cover gives clearance for the fittings and also gives access to remove the pump from the tank.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: apophenia on April 26, 2020, 04:45:57 AM
Those Pulsometer pumps are described as "immersed" but only the uppermost flange was actually set into the fuel tank - hence the teardrop fairings below them. Attached is a close-up of a drawing similar to Greg's (albeit of a B.Mk.II) showing the arrangement of the Pulsometer FB fuel pumps.

Apparently some B.Mk.Is lacked those fuel pumps on the inboard, 'No. 1' 580 Imp. Gallon tanks. This was 'Mod. 594 (temporary)' which substituted stack pipes on the No. 1 tanks but retained pumps on the other two sets of outboard tanks.

There is also mention of alternative Thomson fuel pumps but, I believe, only on Victory-built Mk.X Lancs. A look at the underside of Mk.Xs shows the same (or similar?) teardrop bulges as on UK-built Lancs.

Pulsometer refers, of course, to the London-based Pulsometer Engineering Company, Ltd. I'm less certain about who "Thomson" was. At first, I assumed that they were US or Canadian ... but now I'm wondering if it might be Thompson Bros. (Bilston), Ltd - the maker's of fuel bowsers? British Thomson-Houston also occurred to me (but then, I suspect, the pumps would be dubbed 'BTH' rather than 'Thomson').
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: PlasticMasticator on April 26, 2020, 07:08:09 AM
Many thanks...very interesting. Would these fairings be linked to the operation of the Merlins or would they be there whichever engine was strapped on? The Manchester/Vulture combo does not seem to have them although the wing was essentially the same.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 26, 2020, 08:40:06 AM
I believe they are independent of engine type which would make sense.  You can see them under the wing of the B.II as well:

(https://cdn-live.warthunder.com/uploads/f2/19183541739d7257d85ce3620d0b309b7f7ee7/acc4a00a15f91178cdf380c9d11f337bf3a33abb.jpg)

You don’t see them on the Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton though as they had different wings.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: PlasticMasticator on April 26, 2020, 09:32:03 AM
Very grateful...I'll keep them on as I like the look, makes the wing look busier.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: The Big Gimper on April 28, 2020, 03:55:53 AM
Via Facebook.

(https://scontent.fxds1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/94859638_3131710410227386_1201154562866544640_o.jpg?_nc_cat=100&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=X48xuisKDVYAX-wPsXS&_nc_ht=scontent.fxds1-1.fna&oh=efd2af72e055c0f898b863da63d598e8&oe=5ECEBAF7)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on April 28, 2020, 07:06:35 AM
From what my Dad told me, there was only one Grand Slam Lanc that was painted as a night bomber and it was used as the 'proof-of-concept' aircraft and testing. All operational ones here painted in 'day-bombing' scheme
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 30, 2020, 04:00:07 AM
Good close up of a Manchester:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/Avro_Manchester_Mk_I_of_No._207_Squadron_RAF_at_Waddington%2C_Lincolnshire%2C_12_September_1941._CH3879.jpg)

Click on the picture to zoom it.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 30, 2020, 04:18:34 AM
I thought these had been posted before:

(https://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/GTwiner131/Avro%20Manchester%20%201_zpsquxavwqi.jpg)
(https://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/GTwiner131/Avro%20Manchester%20%202_zpsmovkgsa2.jpg)
(https://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/GTwiner131/Avro%20Manchester%20%203_zpsqxrs5wkg.jpg)
(https://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/GTwiner131/Avro%20Manchester%20%204_zpsfoeh5bux.jpg)
(https://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/GTwiner131/Avro%20Manchester%20%205_zps1g6q29ix.jpg)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: jcf on April 30, 2020, 12:46:23 PM
Here's the Type 679 with the fat ass and big turrets. ;D
(https://photos.smugmug.com/BTS-2/i-ksNSVBX/0/df80baac/O/TYPE_679_40MM_01.png)

The original Type 679 design with catapult concepts.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/BTS-2/i-bWtQ8pN/0/c4677c11/O/TYPE_679_CATAPULT_01.png)

I posted views of the 2 and 4 Hercules and the 2 Centaurus configs on page one of the topic.
http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=987.msg11394#msg11394 (http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=987.msg11394#msg11394)


Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: PlasticMasticator on April 30, 2020, 10:55:38 PM
It's been building up inside me so here goes....always preferred the Manchester to the Lancaster, and the B.II Lanc with the Hercules engines to the Merlin variant. I'd love Airfix to do a Manchester at some point  :-*
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 01, 2020, 02:01:07 AM
Thanks Jon - I thought that was the case.

I just did some checking too:  whilst 40mm cannon were an option, the turret shown above was actually one that had 4 x 20mm cannon and would probably have ended up being identical to that proposed for the Boulton Paul P.92:

(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/xplane/p92/p92-1.gif)
(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/xplane/p92/p92-6.jpg)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 01, 2020, 02:03:00 AM
I am awfully tempted to do a Manchester with Napier Sabres
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: apophenia on May 01, 2020, 04:49:08 AM
I am awfully tempted to do a Manchester with Napier Sabres

Yes, that's a natural  :smiley:

I assume the Centaurus-powered project drawing above depicts the long-span Manchester IIC. Has anyone ever seen a photo of the built (but unflown)  Manchester IC with Centaurus?
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 02, 2020, 02:12:28 AM
Has anyone ever seen a photo of the built (but unflown)  Manchester IC with Centaurus?

I haven't and have been looking.  Even my best reference:

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcQNFZj5PqypUZIDpPA7qBKfk_aQqu2eqLa9-tPzDAZf567rgu-c&usqp=CAU)

Doesn't have a photo.  It does however have much other interesting info such as:

Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: jcf on May 02, 2020, 03:41:54 AM
I assume the Centaurus-powered project drawing above depicts the long-span Manchester IIC. Has anyone ever seen a photo of the built (but unflown)  Manchester IC with Centaurus?

According to 21st Profile Vol.1 No. 5, one airframe was delivered to Bristol but, the
engines were never installed due to the Ministries and RAF having lost all interest
in the Manchester.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: apophenia on May 02, 2020, 07:31:38 AM
Greg Yup, makes perfect sense that the Sabre was in the running. It weighed slightly less than the Vulture and put out more power. I guess it depends when they were looking at the Sabre. Things weren't looking all that rosy for the Napier in 1938. A pity that Bristol's sleeve value-making approach didn't get pulled in sooner.

Jon Interesting. I got the built-but-not-flown from Green & Swanborough (WW2 Fact File RAF Bombers Part 2). It didn't really make sense though. I know the Centaurus got pushed to the back-burner so Bristol could focus on the Hercules. Still, with the Vulture mess at hand, why would they finish the Centaurus conversion and then not even bother to fly it?
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: jcf on May 02, 2020, 09:01:57 AM
Yeah, you'd think that if the engines had been installed then the aircraft would have been
a useful testbed during Centaurus development. That didn't happen, so I'd go with the not
installed narrative being likely.

Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 03, 2020, 06:59:13 AM
Random idea:  RAF and/or RAAF AVRO Lincolns doing night bombing missions over Korea.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 27, 2020, 03:53:08 AM
One I don't recall seeing before - Avro 694 Lincoln Freighter:

(https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/abpic-media-eu-production/pictures/full_size_0118/1178731-large.jpg)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on July 27, 2020, 04:13:17 AM
One I don't recall seeing before - Avro 694 Lincoln Freighter:

(https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/abpic-media-eu-production/pictures/full_size_0118/1178731-large.jpg)
Are there Lincoln conversions to go along with a Lancastrian conversion to produce this one?
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on October 10, 2020, 03:31:29 AM
Interestingly, in Keith Meggs' new "Australian-built Aircraft and the Industry Volume 2" book it is mentioned that the initial plan was for Australian built Lancasters to be P&W R2800 powered. 

And for a comparison with the Bristol Hercules powered Lancaster B.II:



Hercules VI
Power:  1,650 hp (1,230 kW)
Length: 53.15 in (1,350 mm)
Diameter: 55 in (1,397 mm)
Dry weight: 1890lb. (857.3kg)
P&W R2800
Power: 2000+
Length: 81.4 in (2,068 mm)
Diameter: 52.8 in (1,342 mm)
Dry weight: 2,360 lb (1,073 kg)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: finsrin on October 10, 2020, 04:02:21 AM
Interesting you post this at this time.   Was at stash yesterday.   Figured can mount Shackleton engines on B-18.   Well powered post war MPA.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on October 30, 2020, 01:32:36 AM
Supposedly the AVRO Manchester was designed to be able to carry two 18 in (457 mm) torpedoes internally.  Has anyone seen a photo with this fit?

More importantly, how about an AVRO Manchester or better yet a Lancaster in Coastal Command garb in a low level torpedo run...

Not a photo but a drawing at least:

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/e68/GTwiner/27F5FA17_3CD7_4B79_AB65_2F6FD205AD72_4_5005_c.jpeg)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on November 01, 2020, 07:26:50 AM
Hmmm, never knew about these ones:  Coastal Command Lancasters with 2 - 4 fixed 20mm cannon in the nose:

(https://weaponsandwarfare.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/lancasterjpg.jpg)
(https://weaponsandwarfare.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/lancaster2jpg.jpg)

See here (https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2017/04/19/avro-lancaster-coastal-command/)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on November 01, 2020, 11:45:04 AM
The saddle tanks that were trialed for Tiger Force Lancasters, would they fit on Lincolns if one wished longer range?
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on November 01, 2020, 07:03:32 PM
Supposedly the AVRO Manchester was designed to be able to carry two 18 in (457 mm) torpedoes internally.  Has anyone seen a photo with this fit?

More importantly, how about an AVRO Manchester or better yet a Lancaster in Coastal Command garb in a low level torpedo run...

Not a photo but a drawing at least:

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/e68/GTwiner/27F5FA17_3CD7_4B79_AB65_2F6FD205AD72_4_5005_c.jpeg)

That is a cool and interesting find GTX

MAD
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: jcf on November 02, 2020, 05:10:52 AM
Hmmm, never knew about these ones:  Coastal Command Lancasters with 2 - 4 fixed 20mm cannon in the nose:

(https://weaponsandwarfare.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/lancasterjpg.jpg)
(https://weaponsandwarfare.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/lancaster2jpg.jpg)

See here (https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2017/04/19/avro-lancaster-coastal-command/)

Bulged bombay Lancs with six 20mm or 3 40mm mounted in the fwd section.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ysi_maniac on April 03, 2021, 10:12:09 AM
Passenger Shackleton (two options)

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/Shackleton_Viscount.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/ysi_maniac/a/caec78e4-057f-4fe9-82f4-083a43455765/p/30a8b1af-7dbe-42a6-860d-159ea3aeafa4)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on April 04, 2021, 01:19:56 AM
Hmmm, never knew about these ones:  Coastal Command Lancasters with 2 - 4 fixed 20mm cannon in the nose:

(https://weaponsandwarfare.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/lancasterjpg.jpg)
(https://weaponsandwarfare.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/lancaster2jpg.jpg)

See here (https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2017/04/19/avro-lancaster-coastal-command/)

Neither had I --- but you'd think out of the thousands of photos of real Lancasters there would be a least one of it --- or even mention in all the different reference books on the Lancaster.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Gingie on April 05, 2021, 02:40:04 AM
Bulged bombay Lancs with six 20mm or 3 40mm mounted in the fwd section.

Ohhhh yesssss
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 05, 2021, 02:50:29 AM
Random photo:

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/e68/GTwiner/16F8582B-CAA1-4AA2-A0A6-F95FDD58C984.jpeg)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: The Big Gimper on May 15, 2021, 08:28:58 AM
Fellow photo reconnaissance experts!

I am looking any photos of the F49 Camera installation in the Avro Lancaster PR1. I suspect it was installed aft of the bomb bay as photos show the bomb bay doors open on the ground.

Even before the war ended some of the RAF’s strategic photo-reconnaissance aircraft began survey operations on behalf of the Colonial Office. Six Lancaster bombers were converted into Lancaster PR1 photo-reconnaissance aircraft by having their gun turrets removed and fared over. The converted aircraft were fitted with the F49 camera, designed for air survey work of fine definition. The large F49 camera had a 20-inch lens and when loaded with film weighed almost 87 pounds. The camera could be operated electrically or manually and the magazine held 200 exposures of 9 inch by 9 inch film.
Source: https://spyflight.co.uk/aircraft/#Avro

I also saw references to F17 and F24 cameras being carried.

Note the BBMF Lancaster PA474 was at one time a PR1.

(https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/abpic-media-eu-production/pictures/full_size_020/1030349-large.jpg)

(https://spyflight.co.uk/aircraft/index_files/image_34.jpg)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on May 15, 2021, 10:07:44 AM
Fellow photo reconnaissance experts!

I am looking any photos of the F49 Camera installation in the Avro Lancaster PR1. I suspect it was installed aft of the bomb bay as photos show the bomb bay doors open on the ground.

Even before the war ended some of the RAF’s strategic photo-reconnaissance aircraft began survey operations on behalf of the Colonial Office. Six Lancaster bombers were converted into Lancaster PR1 photo-reconnaissance aircraft by having their gun turrets removed and fared over. The converted aircraft were fitted with the F49 camera, designed for air survey work of fine definition. The large F49 camera had a 20-inch lens and when loaded with film weighed almost 87 pounds. The camera could be operated electrically or manually and the magazine held 200 exposures of 9 inch by 9 inch film.
Source: https://spyflight.co.uk/aircraft/#Avro

I also saw references to F17 and F24 cameras being carried.

Note the BBMF Lancaster PA474 was at one time a PR1.

A camera that large would be best located somewhere near the aircraft center of gravity if it was to be used for mapping and survey purposes. 

That being said, what about the area where the lower gun turret had been located?  That particular frame location was in many Lancasters just covered over if I am not mistaken.  The path of least resistance as well since there was a 'hole' there by design that was then covered over it makes sense that this would become the location for the camera portal as it would afford the lens a clear field of view without obstructions. 
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on May 15, 2021, 09:55:11 PM
I think Jeff got it right Carl, this photo below would suggest just that.

Found on this web site

https://www.key.aero/article/shooting-dark-continent (https://www.key.aero/article/shooting-dark-continent)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 16, 2021, 03:24:57 AM
I presume it would have been similar to that used here:  http://jproc.ca/rrp/rrp3/lanc_equipment_details_other_variants.html (http://jproc.ca/rrp/rrp3/lanc_equipment_details_other_variants.html)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: The Big Gimper on May 16, 2021, 05:04:30 AM
Thank you everyone.

And a special shoutout to Greg who schools the Canadian on Canadian websites.  :icon_crap:
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 17, 2021, 12:48:55 AM
My pleasure... ;)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: apophenia on May 17, 2021, 09:23:18 AM
I presume it would have been similar to that used here:  [url]http://jproc.ca/rrp/rrp3/lanc_equipment_details_other_variants.html[/url] ([url]http://jproc.ca/rrp/rrp3/lanc_equipment_details_other_variants.html[/url])


Jerry Proc is good guy. In past exchanges, he's been very generous with both his time and his expertise  :smiley:
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on January 20, 2022, 01:46:37 AM
What was really interesting was his follow up suggestion, that after 100 two stage Merlin Lancasters were built, production should switch to a higher powered version using a license manufactured version of the Pratt & Whitney R-2800 Double Wasp.  Now just imagine that a late war RAAF Lancaster III with three or four twin .50" cal turrets and four massive Double Wasp radials, that would be an interesting wiff build.

I have read a bit on this as well.  The plan was definitely for the DAP Lancasters/Lincolns to be R-2800 powered.  It is very tempting to model one.

Interestingly, there were also pushes from the USAAF for Australia to produce the P-47 using the same engine. A RAAF P-47 in P-51 scheme would also be interesting.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on January 20, 2022, 02:59:56 AM
What was really interesting was his follow up suggestion, that after 100 two stage Merlin Lancasters were built, production should switch to a higher powered version using a license manufactured version of the Pratt & Whitney R-2800 Double Wasp.  Now just imagine that a late war RAAF Lancaster III with three or four twin .50" cal turrets and four massive Double Wasp radials, that would be an interesting wiff build.

I have read a bit on this as well.  The plan was definitely for the DAP Lancasters/Lincolns to be R-2800 powered.  It is very tempting to model one.

Interestingly, there were also pushes from the USAAF for Australia to produce the P-47 using the same engine. A RAAF P-47 in P-51 scheme would also be interesting.

And right now I have four R-2800 resin nacelles/engines winging it's way over to here to do just that. I've been contemplating what the nacelles would have looked like, I'm leaning towards nacelles like what Tudors had ---- 
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on January 20, 2022, 03:30:03 AM
Take it one step further and mate some R3350s to t he Lincoln?
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: raafif on January 20, 2022, 12:28:03 PM
the P&W R-2800 looks ok with P-47 cowlings but the B-29s Wright R3350s look a little too big.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on January 21, 2022, 12:09:35 AM
One of my projects is putting Centaurus engines on one of my Shackletons. The engine nacelle fits just fine without any mods to the Shackleton nacelles, so my plan is to use F7F R-2800 nacelles. These should fit without any mods to a Shackleton nacelle too, as these engines are a tad smaller than the Centaurus. Shackleton nacelles are very similar to Tudor nacelles and they fit quite well on a Lancaster wing.

Oil coolers, aftercoolers and such I would put in a leading edge radiator housing as was planned with the Shackleton MR.4 which was to use R-3350's in one concept.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on January 21, 2022, 05:07:04 AM
Looking at the specs on wiki, a R-2800 is 700lb heavier than a Merlin (dry weight). I'm thinking you'd have to make it like a Lincoln with the extended rear fuselage just to counter the weight difference. So if I was to build a Lanc with R-2800's, I might as well build it as a Lincoln. That way I can use the increased AUW for a decent bomb load. A Lancaster could carry fifteen 1000lbers, I've been thinking what if the 5-bomb clips (found in the Vickers Valiant) were developed earlier then the bomb load could be twenty-five 1000lbers, well within the Lincoln's AUW limit.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: KiwiZac on January 21, 2022, 11:38:01 AM
I'm not sure if it's been mentioned but a Dart-powered Lancastrian has always tickled my fancy...
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on January 22, 2022, 01:38:34 AM
Looking at the specs on wiki, a R-2800 is 700lb heavier than a Merlin (dry weight). I'm thinking you'd have to make it like a Lincoln with the extended rear fuselage just to counter the weight difference. So if I was to build a Lanc with R-2800's, I might as well build it as a Lincoln. That way I can use the increased AUW for a decent bomb load. A Lancaster could carry fifteen 1000lbers, I've been thinking what if the 5-bomb clips (found in the Vickers Valiant) were developed earlier then the bomb load could be twenty-five 1000lbers, well within the Lincoln's AUW limit.

Yeah not sure - going for the air cooled engines would remove the need for the radiators etc so there would be some balancing up there but I would love to know if there were any drawings made of how this fitment would have looked.  Given the Australian s eventually got Lincolns instead, it isquite conceivable that the resulting build would have ended up more akin to a R-2800 powered Lincoln anyway.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: jcf on January 22, 2022, 05:34:24 AM
Net weight change is hard to figure when going from liquid-cooled engines to air-cooled
because it's difficult to come up with numbers on total installed weight, all the systems
required, for most liquid-cooled engines. Also the weight of the coolant is a necessary
number.

I found the numbers for a two-stage two-speed Merlin, IIRC either a P-51D or a Spitfire,
but I'm damned if I can recall where off the top my head. I'll think on it and have a look
round. Coolant and oil system capacities are as important as fuel in determining the
actual loaded weight, but for some reason most references don't include that info.
 :-\

The R-2800-22/22W and -34/34W were the standard F7F engines and weighed 2,385 lbs.

Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on January 22, 2022, 06:56:45 AM
Greg, were you thinking the nacelles would have been like this
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on January 22, 2022, 07:59:45 AM
Honestly, I haven't gotten that far.  My references don't state exactly which variant of the R-2800 was considered though there is commentary that they were looking at an 1850hp variant which would have put in as an "A" Series variant.  They also say that AV Roe and the DTD Air Ministry examined the idea and concurred on the viability equating the performance with the planned 1944 model Merlin MK68 Lancaster.  This was all in 1942.  They also talk about the same power being used for a version of the AVRO York.

Now parallel with this, we know that the CAC CA-15 original plans were to use the following:


So one might conceivably see similar for any Australian DAP produced R-2800 powered Lancaster.  If one also uses the P-47 reference as a basis, we now that P-47J and N subvaraints also used the -57 version so one could probably surmise that this would have ended up being the version used which would probably have resulted in greater performance given the conceivable 4000hp (1000 per engine) extra power between this and the original version proposed and consequently a performance better than the 1944 model Merlin MK68 Lancaster.

As to the cowlings, I was thinking maybe something simple such as that used on Venturas.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on January 22, 2022, 08:11:04 AM
Interesting, but one thing about the R-2800's in the P-47, they also had the big turbo-charger. So, does this mean the turbo would have been somewhere inside the nacelles ? There would have to be room for big intercoolers too, so air scoops and outlets somewhere.

So you would have to accommodate all this lot in each nacelle --- right?
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on January 22, 2022, 06:08:44 PM
You could use an abbreviated P-47 fuselage as a cowling...
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on January 23, 2022, 01:15:06 AM
I don't believe they were talking about turbocharged R-2800s in this proposal....

...mind you, in the whiff verse, such could be an interesting development...
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on January 23, 2022, 03:01:10 AM
I figured out that a good portion of the turbo-charger equipment could be install in the rear of the Shackleton nacelle, I would go with the leading edge radiator housing for all the coolers though. I'm thinking all the nacelles would have the sticky out bit at the rear end. With a lot of weight in the rear end there, I can go back to doing a Lancaster and save my Lincoln conversion for a RW build. I might though use the extended outer wings the Lincoln had though, I like the idea of twenty five 1000blers  >:D  The longer wings would help as I'm planning on using 14'-0" diameter props, inner nacelles can stay where they are, it's the outer ones that would have to be re-positioned.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on January 23, 2022, 03:07:05 AM
I don't believe they were talking about turbocharged R-2800s in this proposal....

...mind you, in the whiff verse, such could be an interesting development...

You were saying that they were talking about using the P-47 engines as something common, all the P-47 used was the turbo-charged variants of the R-2800's.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on January 23, 2022, 03:15:53 AM
The P-47 bit was more that the USAAF were pushing for Australia to adopt the P-47 at the time which may have also boosted R-2800 production/variants selected. The rest is my speculation
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on January 23, 2022, 03:16:47 AM
I have two Paragon Designs 1/48 Avro Lincoln Conversions in the stash...I'm thinking one might get an engine swap:

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/e68/GTwiner/48-paragon-designs-avro-lincoln_360_34ab4adeb865825735322d1d9da4708c.jpg)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/e68/GTwiner/48-paragon-designs-avro-lincoln_360_34ab4adeb865825735322d1d9da4708c-2.jpg)

Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on January 23, 2022, 03:26:30 AM
I have the 1/72 Flightpath conversion.

Or I could do another one of these,  :smiley:   I conjured up for it some RR 24 cylinder Eagle engines for power units
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on January 23, 2022, 03:27:20 AM
Ah, one of the all time classic whiffs! :-*
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on January 23, 2022, 03:31:07 AM
Thanks   :-[

But I really want to do a Lancaster float plane. I remember someone posting a link for a 1/32 Spitfire float plane conversion, which I think would be better to use than the 1/24 ones I used on the Nottingham. I can't remember the outfit that made it though.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on January 23, 2022, 03:36:10 AM
I will meet you halfway:  what about an Avro Manchester floatplane? ;)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on January 23, 2022, 04:02:32 AM
And there's that too, there's photos I've seen of a Manchester being catapult launched in a cradle --- float plane version wouldn't be too far stretched ----
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on January 23, 2022, 04:09:15 AM
Indeed:

(https://i0.wp.com/www.destinationsjourney.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Avro-Manchester-Mk.I-L7246-in-1942-Farnborough-catapult-trials.jpg?w=1024&ssl=1)
(https://i0.wp.com/www.destinationsjourney.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Avro-Manchester-Mk.IA-9.jpg?w=1480&ssl=1)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: apophenia on January 23, 2022, 11:39:41 AM
... I remember someone posting a link for a 1/32 Spitfire float plane conversion, which I think would be better to use than the 1/24 ones I used on the Nottingham. I can't remember the outfit that made it though.

Was it Grey Matter Figures aka Grey Matter Aviation? If so, the resin conversion set is £55!

-- https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/224105431138?epid=1312933571&hash=item342db98062:g:bYMAAMXQd2hRY6lK (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/224105431138?epid=1312933571&hash=item342db98062:g:bYMAAMXQd2hRY6lK)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on January 23, 2022, 11:32:01 PM
... I remember someone posting a link for a 1/32 Spitfire float plane conversion, which I think would be better to use than the 1/24 ones I used on the Nottingham. I can't remember the outfit that made it though.

Was it Grey Matter Figures aka Grey Matter Aviation? If so, the resin conversion set is £55!

-- https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/224105431138?epid=1312933571&hash=item342db98062:g:bYMAAMXQd2hRY6lK (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/224105431138?epid=1312933571&hash=item342db98062:g:bYMAAMXQd2hRY6lK)

Certainly looks like it Stephen,  :smiley:  thanks.  There was a contact address too, and I was going to see if I could just buy the floats. But, RW got in the way ----
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: apophenia on January 24, 2022, 06:10:53 AM
... But, RW got in the way ----

Don'tcha hate when that happens?  ;D

Good approach though. Hit 'em up for the floats only. Even if one had a 1/32nd Spit, I can't think what could be done with the rest of the conversion set ...
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on February 21, 2022, 01:24:38 AM
Random idea for a subtle whiff:  RCAF Avro Lincoln in scheme such as below:

(https://uploads-ssl.webflow.com/60d3c6d0e106af90561564f7/60f9727c2622b4c096061781_Avro-Lancaster--RCAF--Serial-No--FN207---coded--MN-207--Mike-Kaehler.jpeg)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on March 06, 2022, 07:06:04 AM
What was really interesting was his follow up suggestion, that after 100 two stage Merlin Lancasters were built, production should switch to a higher powered version using a license manufactured version of the Pratt & Whitney R-2800 Double Wasp.  Now just imagine that a late war RAAF Lancaster III with three or four twin .50" cal turrets and four massive Double Wasp radials, that would be an interesting wiff build.

I have read a bit on this as well.  The plan was definitely for the DAP Lancasters/Lincolns to be R-2800 powered.  It is very tempting to model one.

Interestingly, there were also pushes from the USAAF for Australia to produce the P-47 using the same engine. A RAAF P-47 in P-51 scheme would also be interesting.

And right now I have four R-2800 resin nacelles/engines winging it's way over to here to do just that. I've been contemplating what the nacelles would have looked like, I'm leaning towards nacelles like what Tudors had ----

So the Quick Boost F7F R-2800 nacelles arrived a short while ago, and I've done a trial fit. I can report that the nacelle fits the Shackleton nacelle almost too perfect, like they were planned to be used in the first place.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on March 06, 2022, 12:52:50 PM
Intriguing ... 
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: raafif on June 15, 2023, 07:37:59 AM
Found on another site :- https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/luftwaffe-lancaster.38096/


(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/lanc2-jpg.244051/)
model built by tc2324 on Fighter Control .co.uk - (pics no longer there).

NOTE :- the schrage-musik installation.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 16, 2023, 04:29:13 AM

model built by tc2324 on Fighter Control .co.uk - (pics no longer there).



He is a member here but hasn't posted for a couple of years.  You can see his work here (http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?action=profile;u=36;area=showposts;start=0).

Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 16, 2023, 02:49:52 AM
Random idea:  what if the Avro Lancaster was given a similar modification to the Vickers Wellington High altitude models (Mk VI shown below) so as to give a High altitude (40,000ft or greater) capability?

(https://www.worldwarphotos.info/wp-content/gallery/uk/raf/wellington/Wellington_Mk_VI.jpg)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: robunos on July 16, 2023, 04:26:04 AM
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/lancaster-high-performance-derivatives.642/ (https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/lancaster-high-performance-derivatives.642/)


cheers,
Robin.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 17, 2023, 01:21:18 AM
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/lancaster-high-performance-derivatives.642/ (https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/lancaster-high-performance-derivatives.642/)


Doh!  I should have known...especially given I even replied in that very thread.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: robunos on July 17, 2023, 04:05:37 AM
 ;)  . . .


cheers,
Robin.
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ysi_maniac on October 02, 2023, 03:26:38 PM
V Shackletons

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/V-Shakleton.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (http://"https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/V-Shakleton.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds")
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on October 03, 2023, 02:18:38 AM
Interesting
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: finsrin on October 03, 2023, 02:36:22 AM
Those look fine.  V-Bomber fronts are cool modernization.  8)
Title: Re: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: apophenia on January 18, 2024, 11:08:35 AM
More reference than inspiration but my partner found this interesting period documentary for me ...

Avro Lancaster Bombers during WWII (36:21)
-- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPg6Yqe0HB0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPg6Yqe0HB0)

The caption reads: "Vintage footage in colour of a squadron of Avro Lancasters circa 1943."

That caption is inaccurate - the filmed operation was from 'HL' and No.170 didn't move to RAF Hemswell until November 1944 onwards The aircraft shown - Lancaster B.III RE126 (c/n 8545) - was completed in early 1945, then delivered to No.170 Squadron on 21 March 1945.

[/nerd mode] Anyway, plenty of interesting interior shots as well as bombing-up. At the very beginning, there is also footage of a Rose-Rice turret being installed and armed (0:24-0:58).