Author Topic: A34 Comet  (Read 28348 times)

Offline Feldmarschall Zod

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A34 Comet
« on: April 29, 2012, 07:07:24 AM »
A few days back,I visited what Jeffry Fontaine calls a McHobby Shop. Hobby Town USA. In the bargain bin was a Bronco A34 Commet going for $19.99. It is missing the D runners/sprues,two each. Those are the suspension parts.

I went and bought the thing. I am thinking about which kind of suspension to add to it. I would like to add  T34 like suspension. I was thinking of the Crusader series,or Cromwell. My concern is,will the Comet tracks fit onto a Crusader,or Cromwell sprocket. When I get home in about three weeks,I will have to test fit the Comet tracks onto the Crusader sprockets. I can always spread the Cromwell sprockets out if it is a question of width.

But the sprocket teeth of the Cromwell vs the Comet is another question. Jeffry Fontaine suggested maybe using the M41 suspension bits.
If all works out,I am thinking of a North African variant.
Every time you eat celery,an angel vomits in a gas station bathroom. Tanks rule. I know the load is late,but the voices tell me to pull over and clean the guns.

Offline dy031101

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Cruiser Tanks
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2012, 10:05:48 AM »
Going quick-and-dirty again, but I got thinking of it after the "No M4 Sherman" scenario being mentioned in the Ideas and Inspirations thread......

I know I should factor-in hull widening à la Avenger, but I thought the lack of return rollers can emphasize a up-gunned hull better.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2012, 07:20:30 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: A34 Comet
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2012, 06:42:18 PM »
Interesting.
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Offline Feldmarschall Zod

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Re: Cruiser Tanks
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2012, 05:10:53 AM »
Going quick-and-dirty again, but I got thinking of it after the "No M4 Sherman" scenario being mentioned in the Ideas and Inspirations thread......

I know I should factor-in hull widening à la Avenger, but I thought the lack of return rollers can emphasize a up-gunned hull better.

Interesting combo. 8)
Every time you eat celery,an angel vomits in a gas station bathroom. Tanks rule. I know the load is late,but the voices tell me to pull over and clean the guns.

Offline dy031101

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Re: Cruiser Tanks
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2012, 07:21:44 AM »
Interesting.
Interesting combo. 8)

Should have added this to the subject heading: M46A2, US Army's last Christie-type tank.  ;D
« Last Edit: June 15, 2012, 07:23:22 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Feldmarschall Zod

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Re: Cruiser Tanks
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2012, 07:33:02 AM »
Interesting.
Interesting combo. 8)

Should have added this to the subject heading: M46A2, US Army's last Christie-type tank.  ;D
When I get home next time,I will have to see if an M46,or M47 turret will fit onto a Comet hull. ;)
Every time you eat celery,an angel vomits in a gas station bathroom. Tanks rule. I know the load is late,but the voices tell me to pull over and clean the guns.

Offline dy031101

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Re: Cruiser Tanks
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2012, 12:08:58 PM »
When I get home next time,I will have to see if an M46,or M47 turret will fit onto a Comet hull. ;)


Looking forward to further observation.

I am expecting a hull-lengthening and -widening similar to the Avenger to be in the order but am looking forward to your further observation.  ;)
« Last Edit: June 16, 2012, 10:54:02 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Feldmarschall Zod

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Re: A34 Comet
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2012, 05:47:44 PM »
here are the measurements from a Comet hull,and M47 hull. They are in 1/35 metric.

Comet.
Hull is 6.5 M wide
3 M wide.
The turret race is 1.3 M in diameter.
 
The road wheels on the Comet are just under 80 CM in diameter..

The M47.
Hull is 6.4 M long
Hull is 3.4 M wide.
Turret race is 2 M in diameter.
Road wheels are 60 CM in diameter.


Here is the M47 turret on the Comet hull




The Comet hull will definatly be needed to wider and longer.
Every time you eat celery,an angel vomits in a gas station bathroom. Tanks rule. I know the load is late,but the voices tell me to pull over and clean the guns.

Offline dy031101

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Re: A34 Comet
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2012, 12:52:39 AM »
Here are pictures of the Avenger, another Cromwell-based tank destroyer armed with a 17 pdr, attached for reference purposes.

Found here.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2012, 01:12:10 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Jacques Deguerre

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Re: A34 Comet
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2012, 09:47:44 AM »
I know that WW2 vintage British tanks tend to be a bit small but I'm shocked at just how HUGE the M47 turret appears on the Comet hull. Especially interesting since I've always thought the turret of the M47 looked a bit small compared to its hull. Even more interesting since that turret was originally designed for the somewhat smaller T42.

Offline AGRA

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Re: A34 Comet
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2013, 04:58:17 PM »
In the late 1950s, early 1960s there was a significant debate about the type of tank in Australian Army service. The army was converting from a “WWIII” Middle East role to a SEATO regional security in South East Asia role and was equipped with Centurion tanks acquired for the former. The argument based on ‘perception’ rather than any operational or scientific study was that a light tank was needed to provide mobility within South East Asia. At the time the Australian Army was given an operational mission to send a significant force as part of 28 Commonwealth Infantry Brigade to Thailand and the Plain of Jars in Laos. The Australian component, originally known as Operation Ambrose, included a medium tank squadron (Centurion), armd recce sqn (Saladins from the ARA A Sqn, 4/19 PWLH) and an anti tank sqn (106mm M40s from the ARA A Sqn, 2/14 QMI).

Because of the debate that heavier tanks couldn’t be used in theatre the British and American armies offered Australia alternative tanks. The British offered their force of Comet tanks that had been used by 1 RTR in Hong Kong up until 1960. When this unit was disbanded their 69 Comets were surplus to requirements and as a 33 tonne tank it was much lighter than the 53 tonne Centurion. The Americans sent a sales team to Australia and NZ for the M41 Walker Bulldog light tank which the Kiwis eventually brought (order for 24 reduced to 10 actually brought).

Part of the debate was a Joint Intelligence Bureau report that Thailand was unsuitable for tank warfare. The Australian Director, Armoured Corps at the time, Lt. Col. Ralph Eldridge, countered the report by asking JIB to nominate specific areas of Thailand unsuitable to tanks. He then found similar terrain in Australia and deployed Centurions there to prove they could operate in this terrain (which they did). The US was sparked by the Australian trials to do their own including actually in Thailand which overturned much of the ‘perception’ that tanks couldn’t be operated. Later trials in Vietnam showed that medium tanks (M48A3) could operate in 61% of South Vietnam in the dry season and 46% in the wet. Which is pretty amazing when one considers that about a third of South Vietnam is the Mekong river delta which is impassable to any land vehicle.

So what if the Australian armoured corps was unable to resist the light tank mantra? Comets or M41s or gawd forbid the self-harming M551 Sheridan? Comets is most interesting because it is a WWII generation tank and as a light weight medium tank at least has some decent armour so it wouldn’t be a death trap in theatre. The Comet, as long as it had a canister shell and could bash through jungle, wouldn’t be too much worse than the Centurion (though its thinner armour would mean more casualties from RPG penetrations). The fifth crew would help with maintenance and the hull MG would come in handy in some situations. The driver's position would be better protected but have worse vision to the flanks. The Comet would look cool with a brace of roof mounted .30 Brownings, surrounded by some diggers in greens with SLRs and the odd M60.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 05:10:22 PM by AGRA »

Offline Weaver

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Re: A34 Comet
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2013, 07:00:20 PM »
I've thought about an updated post WWII Comet a few times. My take:

1. Lose the bow MG and driver's direct vision hatch. Fit a slab of sloping armour in their place, roughly copying the external lines of the Centurion. Give the driver modern periscopes to compensate and use the bow MG gunner's space for extra storage.

2. Fit WWII German-style spaced armour outboard of the tracks and around the turret, in a scheme generally remeniscent of a late Pzkpw IV. This is mainly an anti-RPG screen, since shaped charges were the latest new threat to emerge in the timeframe.

3. Fit a modern commander's cupola with a remote-controlled MG.

4. Replace the 7.92mm BESA MG with a 7.62mm equivent IF that produces a logistics advantage.

5. I'm torn about replacing the engine. On the one hand, it's petrol, which is a generally bad idea, but on the other it was powerful and reliable, so maybe better the devil you know etc...? There's also the issue of total cost: tank rebuilds can end up like Trigger's broom* if you're not careful.

6. One big and not easily fixed (in the 1950s) problem with the Comet was weak belly armour, making it particularly vulnerable to mines. This would be particularly significant in a Vietnam-like COIN scenario. All I can see to do with that one is add some applique to the underside, but you're have to be careful about ground clearance. Maybe the suspension could be modified to compensate but there again, Trigger's Broom....


Incidentally Finland had Comets in war-reserve stocks until 2007!


*For the uninitiated, Trigger's Broom was from an episode of the UK sitcom Only Fools and Horses. Trigger (whose nickname is ironic: he's actually not very bright) remarks that he's had the same broom for 20 years, and it's been perfectly reliable, only needing 17 new heads and 14 new handles in all that time. It's a modern version of the Ship Of Theseus paradox, i.e. if an object has gradually had every component replaced by new ones, is it still the same old object or a new one?
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 07:14:55 PM by Weaver »
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Offline AGRA

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Re: A34 Comet
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2013, 07:10:37 PM »
1. Lose the bow MG and driver's direct vision hatch. Fit a slab of sloping armour in their place, roughly copying the external lines of the Centurion. Give the driver modern periscopes to compensate and use the bow MG gunner's space for extra storage.

If you were to wall over the direct vision hatch you would have to provide the driver some other means of relaxed forward vision. The big problem is the driver of the Comet doesn’t have a roof hatch he can stick his head out of on an adjustable seat. It has a side hatch for access only. So the direct vision port is the only means of driver vision other than the periscopes.

5. I'm torn about replacing the engine. On the one hand, it's petrol, which is a generally bad idea, but on the other it was powerful and reliable, so maybe better the devil you know etc...? There's also the issue of total cost: tank rebuilds can end up like "Trigger's broom" (seven new heads and four new handles) if you're not careful.

A powerpack change wouldn’t hurt just like when applied to the Centurion made them much better tanks. But at least unlike the Centurion the Meteor isn’t as stressed driving a much lighter tank about.

For an Australian 1960s Comet medium tank I would imagine upgrades to be limited to replacing the Besas with .30 Brownings. Replacing the cupola with a Centurion model and maybe the fire control system with a Centurion one as well (if they can fit it in). Plus of course a 77mm canister round if one doesn’t exist already. I think they would keep the hull MG crewman as a co-driver because of the limited view of the driver.

Offline Weaver

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Re: A34 Comet
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2013, 07:29:03 PM »
1. Lose the bow MG and driver's direct vision hatch. Fit a slab of sloping armour in their place, roughly copying the external lines of the Centurion. Give the driver modern periscopes to compensate and use the bow MG gunner's space for extra storage.

If you were to wall over the direct vision hatch you would have to provide the driver some other means of relaxed forward vision. The big problem is the driver of the Comet doesn’t have a roof hatch he can stick his head out of on an adjustable seat. It has a side hatch for access only. So the direct vision port is the only means of driver vision other than the periscopes.

Fair comment - hadn't thought of that. Maybe the vertical strip of armour with the driver's port and the MG in it could be removed entirely and replaced by an armoured "wedge" with an early Panther style direct vision hatch in it..... (not convinced though...)

Or maybe you just put a cast wedge over the left 2/3 of the mantlet and live with the fact that it isn't perfect.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 07:30:58 PM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
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Offline AGRA

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Re: A34 Comet
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2013, 07:50:38 PM »
Maybe the vertical strip of armour with the driver's port and the MG in it could be removed entirely and replaced by an armoured "wedge" with an early Panther style direct vision hatch in it..... (not convinced though...)

If you did that then you could stick the periscopes through this new hull front plate and provide a conventional hatch in the roof that the driver can stick his head up through on an adjustable seat. But it’s a major rebuild of the vehicle but might be worth it if you are totally rebuilding the front hull like with a new drivers fitout for new engine and transmission and bow storage of ammo where the fifth crewman used to be. Cutting out the bow top plates might make it much easier to do all this work.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: A34 Comet
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2013, 09:22:50 PM »
From memory the book Australian Armour by Major general Hopkins, states that plans for Australias post war army included a regular tank brigade with five regiments of Centurions and two CMF tank brigades each with five regiments of Comets.  With ten regiments worth of Comets an upgrade program would have been well worth while. 

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: A34 Comet
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2013, 09:17:02 AM »
I wonder about that.  Spares for Comets would have been becoming increasingly difficult to source by the late 1950s.  The vehicle had been out of production for ~ fifteen years by 1960.   While the Charioteer was still in service in the Middle East and Finland, even they were finding it harder to maintain them.  Maintaining Centurions in Australian service particularly during the Vietnam War was difficult enough and it was still in production!   Many times, crucial spare-parts had be flown straight from UK stocks to Vietnam on commercial flights to keep the Centurions on the road.  Drive sprockets in particular were in short supply and often broken by the Jungle terrain.  The Australian Army since that has made been unwilling to accept into service vehicles which weren't in production and readily available.

Offline AGRA

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Re: A34 Comet
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2013, 09:47:54 AM »
Maintaining the Comet in service into the 60s and 70s depends on how many tanks you want to support, and there is a big difference between a single squadron in Vietnam and ten regiments in Australia. While not in production the Comet uses the same core motor and transmission as the Centurion and has far many more surplus tanks to work from in the boneyard. The Centurion was no longer in production (ended 1962) by the time Australia deployed a tank squadron to Vietnam. The British army retained large stockpiles of Comets in the Middle East (Libya?) and in TA service up until the post Suez retraction and many of these could be supplied to Australia as spare hulks to support the regiments worth of runners from Hong Kong. The UK still had around 900 on the books in Europe and North Africa by 1960.

Obviously the Comet has shortcomings compared to the Centurion into the 1970s but this was not on the mind of those in the Army that wanted a light tank in 1960. If upgraded with the Centurion’s fire control system and using the same engine and transmission and with plenty of boneyard spares it could of course be made to work. Sustaining the Centurion Mk 5 was problem enough because it was still basically a 1940s standard tank in powerpack and radios with only a 1960s standard fire control system. A rebuild in the 60s with a fuel injection engine or diesel and cross drive transmission and new transistorised radios would have made a huge difference to both the Centurion and Comet.

Sustaining the Centurion was considered such an issue that 1 ATF CO Brig. Graham, despite being a major tank man, didn’t want them in theatre when they were deployed. He wanted more helos, incl. gunships, or a US sourced tank. There was even consideration to buy brand new M60s for use by 1 Armd Regt in Vietnam in place of the Centurion. One wonders why they didn’t just ask the US for 60 odd M48A3s on ABCA loan to sustain the deployment (half in Vietnam for operational use and half in Australia for training).
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 09:51:03 AM by AGRA »

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: A34 Comet
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2013, 01:33:48 PM »
The Army has a real dislike for "odd ball" vehicles.  They did "rent" several M48s in Vietnam with mine-clearling rollers to help in removing the barrier minefield but they were returned to the US Army by IIRC 1970.   The Australian Army did look seriously at the M60 as a replacement for the Centurion in the competition that the Leopard eventually won.  The M60 lost out on several important levels such as the problems of getting sufficient numbers from the US to equip 1 Armd.Regt. in one tranche.  As the US Army was busy re-equipping as fast as possible with M60s, the entire production run was basically dedicated to their needs.  We were told we could have a small number of M60s but would have to wait several years and would more than like would get a larger number of later model M60s.  The idea of trying to support several different versions of the one tank didn't appeal to the Army.  Nor did the cost, which was substantially more than the Leopard and in the end that was the one which did it in.  Treasury which hated tanks (and has always tried to get rid of them, seeing them as useless "Koalas" ("Can't be exported and can't be shot at") was only prepared to pay a set amount which was insufficient to purchase enough M60s for operational needs (IIRC they needed sufficient for the Regiment plus a training squadron, Treasury was only prepared to purchase sufficient for the Regiment, which the Army found unacceptable).

Cannibalisaton is not the preferred management model for any military vehicle as it means it will be a diminishing resource.  The Australian Army during the 1960s was extremely resistant to it.  I have been told of how at one point about a third of the Task Force's trucks were immobilised because of a lack of spares and while many of the problems were minor and could have been addressed by cannibalising vehicles, the fear was it would leave Army with a large number of essentially useless vehicles.   A major effort was undertaken instead of stores being combed for them supply them.

So, you have an Army which is resistant to cannibalisation, taking on an out of production tank which had essentially limited life, dependent on cannibalising out of service vehicles to keep the others going? 

Offline AGRA

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Re: A34 Comet
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2013, 04:33:30 PM »
The Army has a real dislike for "odd ball" vehicles.

The Comet wasn’t an odd ball it was an on issue medium tank in ABCA armies at the time. If the RAAC hadn’t proven that the Centurion was mobile in SEA conditions the Army would have brought them. Well we could hope they did because they would have been a lot more survivable and effective than the alternative: the M41 Walker Bulldog.

 
They did "rent" several M48s in Vietnam with mine-clearling rollers to help in removing the barrier minefield but they were returned to the US Army by IIRC 1970.

Yes this was equipment supplied under ABCA cross supply provisions. The same as a number of other assets used by Australia during the Vietnam war like M108 howitzers and Kiowa helicopters. The proposal was to just do the same with the M48 rather than bring Centurions into theatre.

RAAC was against it because their crews were not trained on them and it would delay the deployment considerably. M48A3 was superior in engine and transmission and much easier to drive compared to the Centurion but had an inferior fire control system for tank vs tank engagement.

The Australian Army did look seriously at the M60 as a replacement for the Centurion in the competition that the Leopard eventually won. 

Medium Tank replacement program inspired by Vietnam but not related in anyway to the challenges leading up to the deployment of the Centurions.

The So, you have an Army which is resistant to cannibalisation, taking on an out of production tank which had essentially limited life, dependent on cannibalising out of service vehicles to keep the others going?

The army only developed this resistance thanks to the experiences of the 1960s. It was not an issue at all in the consideration of the Comet and frankly the big argument in favour of using M48s. In an ideal world the Army would have had a new or rebuilt tank for use in Vietnam. The Comet was a real world contender for Australian Army Vietnam War medium tank. So if anyone wants to Whif it they can do so with a non-fictional back story.

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: A34 Comet
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2013, 06:43:13 PM »
The Army has a real dislike for "odd ball" vehicles.

The Comet wasn’t an odd ball it was an on issue medium tank in ABCA armies at the time. If the RAAC hadn’t proven that the Centurion was mobile in SEA conditions the Army would have brought them. Well we could hope they did because they would have been a lot more survivable and effective than the alternative: the M41 Walker Bulldog.

By "odd ball" I meant unusual in Australian Army service.  I'm also unaware of any other than the British who actually adopted the tank (Burmese seems to ring a bell perhaps).  I'd hardly call it "on issue with ABCA armies".  One ABCA army perhaps.  And as has been noted, it was busily divesting itself of them.

The M41 wasn't that bad.  It acquitted itself rather well in combat against North Vietnamese MBTs.  Not bad for a light tank IMHO.   I still have severe doubts as to whether the Australian Army would have been interested in the M41 anyway.  It too was out of production, with all the consequent problems already mentioned.

Quote
They did "rent" several M48s in Vietnam with mine-clearling rollers to help in removing the barrier minefield but they were returned to the US Army by IIRC 1970.

Yes this was equipment supplied under ABCA cross supply provisions. The same as a number of other assets used by Australia during the Vietnam war like M108 howitzers and Kiowa helicopters. The proposal was to just do the same with the M48 rather than bring Centurions into theatre.

RAAC was against it because their crews were not trained on them and it would delay the deployment considerably. M48A3 was superior in engine and transmission and much easier to drive compared to the Centurion but had an inferior fire control system for tank vs tank engagement.

Interesting point which I've not heard before.  I have read ex-US Tankers wax lyrical about the M48 and they considered it's coincidence range-finder better than the Centurion's "primitive" (their words, not mine) ranging MG.  I am in no position I admit to judge either way and suspect that like many such matters either is as good as the other in competent hands, most of the time.

The M108s were US owned and along with the M109s, US operated, I believe.  I can't find a reference at the moment but I believe they remained under US ownership throughout their use in the first few years of the deployment.  They were never taken on charge, unlike the M48s.

Quote
The Australian Army did look seriously at the M60 as a replacement for the Centurion in the competition that the Leopard eventually won. 

Medium Tank replacement program inspired by Vietnam but not related in anyway to the challenges leading up to the deployment of the Centurions.

Yes.  Coupled with the increasing difficulties in maintaining the Centurions which we have already touched upon.

Quote
The So, you have an Army which is resistant to cannibalisation, taking on an out of production tank which had essentially limited life, dependent on cannibalising out of service vehicles to keep the others going?

The army only developed this resistance thanks to the experiences of the 1960s. It was not an issue at all in the consideration of the Comet and frankly the big argument in favour of using M48s. In an ideal world the Army would have had a new or rebuilt tank for use in Vietnam. The Comet was a real world contender for Australian Army Vietnam War medium tank. So if anyone wants to Whif it they can do so with a non-fictional back story.

Nothing stopping someone from Whiffing, I agree.  I am interested though, in exploring this, to me at least, hitherto unknown story of its possible adoption.

Offline AGRA

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Re: A34 Comet
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2013, 07:54:48 PM »
I'm also unaware of any other than the British who actually adopted the tank (Burmese seems to ring a bell perhaps).  I'd hardly call it "on issue with ABCA armies".  One ABCA army perhaps.  And as has been noted, it was busily divesting itself of them.

I won’t respond to every point made in this last post because it seems very repetitive and like a lot of iron cast opinion with little founding. But to the issue with ABCA armies perhaps you don’t understand the terminology? It only needs to be on issue to one army within this partnership for it to be considered ABCA. Since the Comet was a British tank on issue to their Army and at that time (1956-60) Australia could benefit from ABCA for access to the Comet. The same mechanism by which Australia benefited in sustaining the Centurion in service.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 07:57:54 PM by AGRA »

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: A34 Comet
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2013, 09:37:47 PM »
Quote
ABCA Armies (formally, the American, British, Canadian, Australian and New Zealand Armies' Program) is a program aimed at optimizing interoperability and standardization of training and equipment between the armies of the United States of America, United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, plus the United States Marine Corps and the Royal Marines. Established in 1947 as a means to capitalize on close cooperation between the United States, United Kingdom, and Canada during World War II, the program grew to include Australia (in 1963) and New Zealand (as an observer from 1965, with full membership in 2006).


So, why would Australia in the 1950s care about an agreement it was not even a party to?

Moreover, the agreement was originally on standardisation of Infantry Equipment, not tanks:

Quote
Originally, the role of ABCA was limited to issues of standardization for soldier equipment, training, and tactics. Following the September 11 attacks, a review by the Program's Heads of Delegations saw the Program modified to address the changing security environment and improve responsiveness, relevance, and focus on interoperability. The overhaul was completed by June 2004.

[Big Boys and Girls' Book of World Knowledge]
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 08:36:10 AM by Rickshaw »

Offline AGRA

  • Took the opportunity to tease us with a RAAF F-82
Re: A34 Comet
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2013, 07:00:43 AM »
So, why would Australia in the 1950s care about an agreement it was not even a party to?

Moreover, the agreement was original on standardisation of Infantry Equipment, not tanks:


You really have to stop doing your own research!

ABCA Armies is what we call it today. But back in the late 1950s, early 60s, it was called the Basic Standardization Concept and it worked in the same way for Australia. Australia *joined the organisation* in 64 when it was renamed ABCA but before being a member Australia was a partner.

Kind of like we are now with NATO. Australia gets access to all the standardisation stuff and information flows but isn’t a full member with a voting seat at the big table and of course the security agreement.

Now I’ve sent you the source to my comments here by PM and you still insist on digging around the edges using factoids and your ignorance to try and shoot this down. Get over yourself. This stuff happened and it happened in the way I characterised.

Canister! On! FIRE! Australian Tank Operations in Vietnam
By Lt.Col. Bruce Cameron, MC (Ret.)
http://www.bigskypublishing.com.au/Books/Military/Canister--On--FIRE--Australian-Tank-Operations-in-Vietnam/975/productview.aspx

Offline Weaver

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Re: A34 Comet
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2013, 08:06:16 AM »
Might I suggest turning down the heat and the personal comments please? The generally accepted rule is : play the ball, not the man.....
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

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