Author Topic: Business and regional jets  (Read 17289 times)

Offline ysi_maniac

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Business and regional jets
« on: October 16, 2013, 12:18:52 AM »
Reworking HS 125




Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2013, 12:23:57 AM »
I like the four engine design. Scale-o-rama with a 1/144 airliner.
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2013, 01:16:10 AM »
The jet engine pods from the Italeri/Testors AC-119 kit would work very well for such a modification project in 1:72nd scale  :)
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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2018, 07:28:05 PM »
What about something such as a Learjet with the twin small engines replace by something such as a P&W F100 in the tail fed by a single over fuselage intake (with either ramp or shock cone).  One supersonic business jet!
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2018, 02:39:44 AM »
Need a thinner and re-profiled wing, too.  Current Learjet wing gets severe "Mach tuck" at Mach=.85 which creates a severe nose-down pitching moment that can very easily lead to a great smoking hole in the ground.

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2018, 04:19:45 AM »
New wing is a definite.
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Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2018, 04:38:59 AM »
Like this?


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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2018, 08:40:18 PM »
Yep that would work.  A variable intake might be useful to get the best performance though
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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2018, 02:47:31 AM »
Sweet!

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Offline jcf

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2018, 04:54:02 AM »
Brit concepts.






Blackburn




Originally a concept for a VTOL military liaison aircraft, considered for exec role, centre fan lift.





Two SR.177 based concepts.


« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 09:05:57 AM by jcf »
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Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2018, 09:59:52 AM »
Thanks for posting.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2018, 10:38:04 AM »
B.114 looks like an expansion on the Miles Student jet trainer.  Some interesting concepts there and the ones with lift fans remind me of some studies Ryan did of mating lift fans with an early-model Learjet.

Offline M.A.D

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2018, 10:36:13 AM »
What about Contingency Fighter's aka Emergency Fighter adoption of business jets for military roles eg: Interceptor / Ground Attack? Or has this already been done in other forums? (if so, I apologise, and please disregard)


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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2018, 11:37:00 AM »
What about Contingency Fighter's aka Emergency Fighter adoption of business jets for military roles eg: Interceptor / Ground Attack? Or has this already been done in other forums? (if so, I apologise, and please disregard)
There were studies of interceptor versions of the Learjet 35/36 with a radar on the top of the vertical tail and three missiles, 2x AMFAAM and 1x IRAAM, under each wing.  You could also adapt the Learjet wing to carry ground attack munitions and add suitable sensor designator elements either on the fuselage or at the front end of the tip tanks.

Offline ScranJ51

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2018, 12:01:07 PM »
The Royal Navy used one or two (actually this is number 4) for Fleet Support in Scran Land:

HS125-3 by David Freeman, on Flickr

HS125-2 by David Freeman, on Flickr

HS125-1 by David Freeman, on Flickr
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Offline Acree

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2018, 12:09:37 PM »
The US Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) use Cessna Citation 550s equipped with AN/APG 66 radar and other sensors on intercept duties. See here: https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/documents/FS_2015_C-550%20Citation.pdf

Offline jcf

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2018, 12:20:33 PM »
What about Contingency Fighter's aka Emergency Fighter adoption of business jets for military roles eg: Interceptor / Ground Attack? Or has this already been done in other forums? (if so, I apologise, and please disregard)


M. A. D

Dime-a-dozen in Whif-verse, and not uncommon in the “real world”, and all far
more boring than the reverse: bizjets/exec aircraft based on military aircraft.
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2018, 11:34:57 AM »
What about Contingency Fighter's aka Emergency Fighter adoption of business jets for military roles eg: Interceptor / Ground Attack? Or has this already been done in other forums? (if so, I apologise, and please disregard)


M. A. D

Dime-a-dozen in Whif-verse, and not uncommon in the “real world”, and all far
more boring than the reverse: bizjets/exec aircraft based on military aircraft.

Well the original Lear was based on a fighter / ground attack aircraft and the Mystere business jets were evolved from the like Nb armed fighters.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2018, 12:44:35 PM »
Yep, the Learjet, especially the Model 23, uses the wings, tail surfaces, and tip tanks of the FFA P-16.  The wings on the Models 23/24/25, 28/29, 35/36, 55, 60 all share this ancestry.  Only the comparatively recent Model 45 has a new wing.

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2018, 01:52:09 AM »
It would be interesting to see some other fighters developed into business jets:

  • Mirage III/2000?
  • Mirage F.1
  • F-4 Phantom II
  • F-104
  • F-14
  • F-16
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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2018, 01:53:20 AM »
Speaking of which, here is a theoretical F-111 Executive jet I did ages ago:

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2018, 01:55:20 AM »
And there was the real world MiG-25 proposal:

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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2018, 02:31:07 AM »
Then there's Cessna's Model 407/407A derivatives of the T-37 as well as the "executive transport" version of the F-106 that Convair proposed (really want to model that one in 1/48).  For that matter, there's the TU-116, a more direct conversion of a TU-95 airframe for a special personnel transport than the TU-114 airliner.

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2018, 02:38:37 AM »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2018, 04:33:49 AM »
Another conversion:

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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2018, 08:44:45 AM »
I think that Vampire BizJet would look right at home with Gerry Anderson's Thunderbirds. 
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Offline jcf

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2018, 08:40:14 AM »
More SARO, two of the different configurations studied during the P195 & P202 design
process.


Four engines buried in the rear fuselage, tiltable for short takeoff.

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Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2018, 02:42:58 AM »
Regional STOL

Found in DeviantArt. I love it

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2018, 03:32:38 AM »
 :smiley:
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Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2018, 09:25:49 AM »
Speaking of which, here is a theoretical F-111 Executive jet I did ages ago:




Greg, may I ask for your licence to build this one day? ??? 8)

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #30 on: May 06, 2018, 01:24:05 AM »
Go for it!
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Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2018, 08:09:30 PM »
 :smiley: OK!

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2018, 02:21:50 AM »
It started off as a business jet:

https://youtu.be/-MGJnL-Smk4
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2018, 05:43:53 AM »
In the latest issue of Air-Britain's Aviation World, there's an article about a De Havilland (UK) reginal airliner called the D.H.123.  I can't find anything on the internet other than what's on SPF (no pictures), but it looks like a fore runner to a Dash 8

Offline apophenia

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2018, 07:39:34 AM »
The powerplant for the D.H.123 - the de Havilland Gnome P.1000 turboprop - had an interesting shaft arrangement. Here is a bit on the P.1000 from Flight 18 March 1960:

"D.H. Gnome P.1000 Free-turbine turboprop. Ten-stage compressor with variable-incidence inlet guide vanes and first three stators, annular combustion chamber with 16 burners, two-stage compressor turbine, independent single-stage power, turbine driving through rear reduction gear, high-speed top shaft and front reduction gear to suit propeller speeds from 1,245 to 1,550 r.p.m. Overall length, 87.3 in; height, 31.55 in; width, 17 in; dry weight, with starter and accessories, 555 lb; mass flow, 12.4 lb/sec; pressure ratio, 8.3:1; max rating (5 min.), 1,000 s.h.p. + 144 lb thrust at 26.260 r.p.m. (20,000 power-turbine r.p.m.) with s.f.c. of 0.669 lb/hr/s.h.p.; recommended cruise, 800 s.h.p. + 120 lb at 25,120/17,000 r.p.m. with s.f.c. of 0.728; the P.1200 will have corresponding ratings of 1,150 and 900 s.h.p. with sf.c. of 0.657 and 0.71.

https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1960/1960%20-%200370.PDF

Flight 20 July 1961 reported that "The first P.1000 ran in September 1960, and a Dakota is now being fitted with two of these engines for flight-test purposes." Anyone know if that TurboDak actually flew?

https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1961/1961%20-%200980.PDF
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Offline tankmodeler

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2018, 01:38:05 AM »
The powerplant for the D.H.123 - the de Havilland Gnome P.1000 turboprop - had an interesting shaft arrangement. Here is a bit on the P.1000 from Flight 18 March 1960:

"D.H. Gnome P.1000 Free-turbine turboprop. Ten-stage compressor with variable-incidence inlet guide vanes and first three stators, annular combustion chamber with 16 burners, two-stage compressor turbine, independent single-stage power, turbine driving through rear reduction gear, high-speed top shaft and front reduction gear to suit propeller speeds from 1,245 to 1,550 r.p.m.
The PT6 simplified the whole engine package by doing something non-intuitive, having the air inlet at the back and the exhaust at the front.

It costs you some extra ducting, which, if you do it right can actually act to reduce engine inlet noise, so it's not a total loss, but what that does is puts the free turbine, and the required gearbox, up front, right next to the prop, so there's no extension shaft, no need to sidestep the engine with the prop shaft or to run the prop shaft up inside the turbine. It simplified things amazingly. Everything, from engine build, and test to maintenance and up rating. Compared to previous turboprops PT-6s are incredibly simple engines.

Paul

Offline apophenia

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2018, 07:19:30 AM »
Good points Paul. As you say, a reverse-flow arrangement would greatly simplify things ... perhaps explaining to DH why GE never pursued a turboprop T58  ;)
(Actually, that Gnome P.1000 shaft reminded me a little of the PT6T TwinPac  arrangement.)

Maybe de Havilland would have been better off designing a D.H.123 with pusher props?
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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2018, 01:01:39 AM »
In the latest issue of Air-Britain's Aviation World, there's an article about a De Havilland (UK) reginal airliner called the D.H.123.  I can't find anything on the internet other than what's on SPF (no pictures), but it looks like a fore runner to a Dash 8

I assume the Aviation World article doesn't include any images?
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2018, 02:55:34 AM »
In the latest issue of Air-Britain's Aviation World, there's an article about a De Havilland (UK) reginal airliner called the D.H.123.  I can't find anything on the internet other than what's on SPF (no pictures), but it looks like a fore runner to a Dash 8

I assume the Aviation World article doesn't include any images?

Actually quite a few, just can't find any on the internet. It's one of those discoveries that might not have been found except for some alert fellow who knew what he was looking at.

Just had a look at the article again, it's four pages long of typical magazine size pages. Some 3-Veiws and a couple of artist impressions. And some seating arrangements. Fellow's name who salvaged the documents is Tony Thatcher.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2018, 05:16:54 AM by kitnut617 »

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2018, 05:07:12 AM »
Ta - might need to source a copy
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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #40 on: March 24, 2020, 04:40:05 AM »
Inspiration...



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Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #41 on: March 26, 2020, 07:34:50 AM »
That illustration...  :icon_surprised:
Oh! Great!  :icon_twisted: *mutter-grumble* That's me off looking for 1/72 kits of a Falcon 50. *asks-the-Google*Oh! Amodel/Sova-M do one! Fine! Another kit for the stash!  :icon_twisted:

Didn't know it carried two Exocets.
Some pages of Tom Cooper's Middle East@War volume "Iraqi Mirages: Mirage F.1 in Service with Iraqi Air Force, 1981-2003" are dedicated to this particular Falcon. Pretty interesting stuff.
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #42 on: March 26, 2020, 10:30:12 AM »
Wonder how something like that would look in Argentinian markings?

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #43 on: March 27, 2020, 01:26:23 AM »
Wonder how something like that would look in Argentinian markings?

 :smiley:
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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #44 on: December 18, 2020, 02:18:40 AM »
I like the look of this:


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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #45 on: January 27, 2021, 01:40:45 AM »
At first glance this almost looks like a delta winged jet:



I know its not, but...

You can click on the image to see a bigger version.
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #46 on: January 27, 2021, 03:46:49 AM »
just a thought, a Learjet similar to the JASDF's U-36A in low-viz grey as an ETC-21C serving in one of the US Navy's electronic aggressor squadrons.

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #47 on: January 28, 2021, 01:04:27 AM »
just a thought, a Learjet similar to the JASDF's U-36A in low-viz grey as an ETC-21C serving in one of the US Navy's electronic aggressor squadrons.

Looking a little like this perhaps:



or this:

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Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #48 on: April 11, 2021, 01:30:55 PM »
Regional liner based on Il-28 Beagle.


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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #49 on: April 12, 2021, 01:16:53 AM »
Interesting
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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #50 on: April 15, 2021, 03:04:45 AM »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #51 on: April 15, 2021, 07:56:20 AM »
Well, that's one way to recycle a Learjet Model 25.  I can appreciate that it has been christened "Limo-Jet".  It might be a bit easier to do the same thing with a Model 23 or Model 24 fuselage, since they are shorter.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2021, 07:59:41 AM by elmayerle »

Offline dy031101

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #52 on: April 25, 2021, 10:33:56 AM »
The increased frequency of PLAAF/PLANAF probing flights (which frequently consist of various Y-8-based reconnaissance aircraft and H-6 bombers rather than Su-27-based fighters) around Taiwan have gotten some local enthusiasts thinking of a cheap-to-operate, maybe high-endurance stalker aircraft to monitor the large reconnaissance or bomber planes and by extension save airframe hours of F-CK-1s and F-16s for those flown with actual fighters.

Which reminds me of the HU-25C Guardian (incidentally, ROCAF would likely have quite a few surplus APG-66V(3) lying around upon the conclusion of the F-16V project)...... although I surmise that the platform has to be able to keep up with the cruise speed and service ceiling of the H-6K.

The Embraer Phenom 100 is mentioned in one of those discussions in comparison against the Textron Scorpion...... although so far I like the Phenom 300 better.  The H-6K can outrun all three at top speed, but the Phenom 300 at least has a higher cruise speed, and the available internal space can be converted into more internal fuel.  Having said that, neither version of the Phenom appears to have room in the nose for a radar.

Comments and suggestions would be appreciated.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2021, 11:05:00 AM by dy031101 »
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #53 on: April 28, 2021, 10:18:50 AM »
... thinking of a cheap-to-operate, maybe high-endurance stalker aircraft to monitor the large reconnaissance or bomber planes and by extension save airframe hours of F-CK-1s and F-16s ...


That dove-tailled with some of my musings on the fate of first-generation Learjets. If older, cheaper bizjet 'interceptors' are of interest, see:

http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=351.msg183961#msg183961

As for comments and suggestions,  are qualified bizjet pilots readily available to the ROCAF? In the current political climate, I'm wondering if Taiwan might not get a more cooperation out of the US administration and FMS process?

If so, what about snagging some of the early F-16As now in storage at Davis-Monthan AFB? Not as capable as the ROCAF Vipers but wouldn't have any trouble catching up with an H-6! And if pilots are in short supply, start up the AVG again  ;)
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Offline dy031101

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #54 on: May 01, 2021, 02:17:00 AM »
That dove-tailled with some of my musings on the fate of first-generation Learjets. If older, cheaper bizjet 'interceptors' are of interest, see:

http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=351.msg183961#msg183961

As for comments and suggestions......


Thanx  :smiley:

...... are qualified bizjet pilots readily available to the ROCAF?


Yeah...... that would be an issue to be addressed.
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #56 on: July 14, 2023, 04:42:13 AM »
Just a thought, a USN-opereated equivalent of the JMSDF U-36A version of the Learjet as an ETC-21B airacraft for simulating electronic attacks on fleet elements.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2023, 08:20:21 AM by elmayerle »

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #57 on: July 14, 2023, 05:21:21 AM »
Real world proposal: ...

There a bit of DNA in there from Saab's Swordfish MPA platform ...

Non-Real world proposal: https://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=10341.msg198351#msg198351
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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #58 on: July 14, 2023, 08:22:00 AM »
Wish someone would bring out in 1/48 a conversion kit and decals for the Learjet 35s operated by Finland.  I know they have some special mods but I don't remember all the details.

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #59 on: July 14, 2023, 11:31:39 AM »
Wish someone would bring out in 1/48 a conversion kit and decals for the Learjet 35s operated by Finland.  I know they have some special mods but I don't remember all the details.

Evan: A bunch of Ilmavoimat LJ details here: https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235083664-finnish-air-force-learjet-35a/
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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #60 on: July 15, 2023, 01:50:01 AM »
Wish someone would bring out in 1/48 a conversion kit and decals for the Learjet 35s operated by Finland.  I know they have some special mods but I don't remember all the details.

Some details here:  https://ilmavoimat.fi/documents/1951206/2016308/Finnish+Air+Force+Fact+Sheet+-+Gates+Learjet+35+%28JUL+18%29.pdf/39463e19-52f6-43a6-ac4d-ebb7400ad31a/Finnish+Air+Force+Fact+Sheet+-+Gates+Learjet+35+%28JUL+18%29.pdf.pdf
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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #61 on: July 15, 2023, 06:59:23 AM »
Thank you both for those links.  I remember these aircraft because they were produced while I worked for GLC.  The original drop hatch design was rather more pronounced, and the Learjet wind tunnel people had a devil of a time getting its aerodynamics to work with that large under-fuselage radar pod.  What you see in the references is what finally developed.  Does anyone make decals for these in 1/48?  I am really tempted to combine the ELINT/SIGINT mods from the Finnish Learjets with the JMSDF's U-36A configuration as part of producing an ETC-21B EW trainer, perhaps in USN markings akin to what their EB-47's wore "back in the day".

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #62 on: July 16, 2023, 01:53:22 AM »
Well Axel Grundmann did this one in 1/48:



More info
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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #63 on: July 17, 2023, 04:01:53 AM »
^ Nice!!! Seeing that makes me want to hang on to my Sword U-125A!

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #64 on: July 21, 2023, 06:12:57 AM »
Well Axel Grundmann did this one in 1/48:



More info
Anyone know where I can find 1/48 decals for the Finnish Learjets?  That does look quite attractive.

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #65 on: July 21, 2023, 12:58:23 PM »
I was lucky enough to see one of the Norwegian Falcon 20 ECM machines at a show a few years ago:


They retired the type in Autumn of 2022 and its duties will be taken over by the P-8 Poseidon.

One thing I wonder about some bizjets is their suitability for conversion to UAV roles. I know they created a UAV version of the Piaggio Avanti bizprop, so I'm sure some bizjets have the potential.

If one didn't need to worry about the comforts of human occupants, I think som bizjet design could be easily adjusted for unmanned roles.
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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #66 on: July 23, 2023, 02:29:13 AM »

Anyone know where I can find 1/48 decals for the Finnish Learjets?  That does look quite attractive.

I don't believe there are any per se but you could either repurpose some from another kit/decal set or perhaps get some custom ones made.
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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #67 on: July 23, 2023, 02:36:19 AM »
One thing I wonder about some bizjets is their suitability for conversion to UAV roles. I know they created a UAV version of the Piaggio Avanti bizprop, so I'm sure some bizjets have the potential.

Most definitely.

I actually have plans to do up a 1/72 Broplan Tp102D Gulfstream G550 as an unmanned refuelling tanker for a couple of 1/72 Platz X-47B US Navy UCAS.
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Business and regional jets
« Reply #68 on: July 29, 2023, 10:52:44 AM »
Well, I found a good reference for the Finnish Learjets.  MMP's "Finnish Jet Colours" has a whole chapter on them.  I remember them well as they were built at Learjet while I was working there.

Also, MBI's book, Learjet has a good shot of a Finnish Learjet from underneath that other books do not have.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2023, 08:27:48 AM by elmayerle »