Author Topic: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 24630 times)

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Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration
« on: April 12, 2015, 05:32:28 AM »
Folks,

A thread for your Alvis Saladin (and associated, e.g. Saracen) Ideas and Inspiration.


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Re: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2015, 05:35:36 AM »
To begin with, what about one with the turret and 30 mm L21 RARDEN cannon from the FV721 Fox:

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Re: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2015, 05:37:43 AM »
Interesting 'sci-fi' look to this one being restored:

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Offline taiidantomcat

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Re: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2015, 01:34:20 PM »
NEat find!  :)
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Re: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2015, 02:46:49 AM »
What about Australia and/or New Zealand having some and using them in Vietnam?
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2015, 08:33:58 AM »
What about Australia and/or New Zealand having some and using them in Vietnam?

The Australian Army was heavily wedded to the M113 FOV which is why they'd decided to retire all their wheeled AFVs in the early 1960s.  I suspect the Saladin might have been a bit of a surprise to the NLF the first time they encountered them but their role would have been rather limited because of their lack of off-road mobility in either the dense jungle or the open paddy fields characteristic of the coastal plains of South Vietnam.

Offline Weaver

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Re: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2015, 10:18:45 PM »
What about Australia and/or New Zealand having some and using them in Vietnam?

The Australian Army was heavily wedded to the M113 FOV which is why they'd decided to retire all their wheeled AFVs in the early 1960s.  I suspect the Saladin might have been a bit of a surprise to the NLF the first time they encountered them but their role would have been rather limited because of their lack of off-road mobility in either the dense jungle or the open paddy fields characteristic of the coastal plains of South Vietnam.

Not sure if the Aussies had to do it, but how about for "road-runner" ops protecting supply convoys? Getting a 76mm cannister round back your way can radically alter your plans for the ambush...
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Offline Weaver

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Re: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2015, 10:58:18 PM »
I'm pretty sure the Saladin could take a way bigger gun, given the gun:weight ratios of some of the French armoured cars. The GIAT 90mm medium velocity gun from the AML-90 should be a shoe-in, as should the Belgian Cockerill. Another interesting one would be the Israeli 60mm HVMS gun as used in Chilean Shermans, Chaffees and Piranhas.

The other obvious mod would be a modern diesel engine, in fact I think I'm right in saying such a conversion was available.


To begin with, what about one with the turret and 30 mm L21 RARDEN cannon from the FV721 Fox:

If you offer up a Scorpion/Scimitar/Fox turret to a Saladin hull it looks lost: just too small. However putting a RARDEN into the original Saladin turret would be perfectly feasible and make a lot of sense, since the Fox turned out to have some mobility issues  due to being too top heavy.

The Airfix 1/76th Scorpion kit comes with an optional RARDEN too, so it would be really easy to do this with the ex-JB Saladin.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2015, 12:50:41 AM »
My understanding is the Saladins and Saracens were in service into the 70s, possibly late 70's when sufficient M-113s became available to re-equip the CMF / Reserves so it is conceivable that had Australia increased their contribution, say adding CMF Cavalry Troops as force protection assets, in a similar manner to how we used ASLAVs in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2015, 08:30:26 AM »
My understanding is the Saladins and Saracens were in service into the 70s, possibly late 70's when sufficient M-113s became available to re-equip the CMF / Reserves so it is conceivable that had Australia increased their contribution, say adding CMF Cavalry Troops as force protection assets, in a similar manner to how we used ASLAVs in Iraq and Afghanistan.


Quote
The Saladin Armoured Car was introduced into the 4th/19th Prince of Wales Light Horse during the period 1965 – 1966. This vehicle offered greater firepower and mobility than had been previously provided by the Staghound Armoured Car and was effective in its reconnaissance role

The Saladin was supplied in small numbers to the Australian Army in the early 1960's, and were used only in the training role. In 1969-70 all 15 vehicles had their Turrets removed and these were fitted to the M113A1 Fire Support Vehicle - eight of which saw service with the RAAC in South Vietnam in 1971

Numerous Saladin are surviving in Australia, one example is on display at the RAAC Memorial and Tank Museum Puckapunyal Vic.[ and another complete operational, privately owned ex-British Saladin exists in the lower Blue Mountains 40 miles West of Sydney. Many ex-Australian Army Saladin remain turretless because of the fitting of Saladin turrets on M113 carriers to make the Fire Support Vehicle (M113-A1 FSV) used in the Vietnam conflict.

The vehicle on display at the Tank Museum Puckapunyal Vic is one of the 15 operated by the Australian Army. Its Turret was removed in 1969-70 for fitting to the M113A1 FSV and the vehicle was taken out of service. Following the withdrawal from service of the M113A1 FSVs, six were sold to New Zealand without their Saladin Turrets. One of these Turrets was obtained by the Museum and refitted to the Saladin's hull.

[Source]

While it may have been nice to have the FSV and the Saladin operating side-by-side, the reality was the numbers weren't there.  It was more a case of one or the other.  15 wasn't a big enough buy and by the mid-1960s, Army was wedded to the M113.

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2015, 08:36:06 AM »
I'm pretty sure the Saladin could take a way bigger gun, given the gun:weight ratios of some of the French armoured cars. The GIAT 90mm medium velocity gun from the AML-90 should be a shoe-in, as should the Belgian Cockerill. Another interesting one would be the Israeli 60mm HVMS gun as used in Chilean Shermans, Chaffees and Piranhas.

The other obvious mod would be a modern diesel engine, in fact I think I'm right in saying such a conversion was available.

Quote
Saladin Repower

In 1991, it was announced that A F Budge Limited and Alvis Vehicles Limited had developed a repower package for the Saladin armoured car. The existing petrol engine is replaced by a Perkins 180 MTi diesel developing 180 hp.

Additional improvements have been made to the chassis including a modern cooling pack, a new electrical system, upgraded brakes, a fire suppression system and the replacement of the original transmission with a more modern automatic transmission.

The diesel installation requires only minor changes to the engine compartment and offers the advantages of improved reliability and simplified maintenance, lower fuel consumption, increased operational range and reduced risk of fire.

This conversion package has already been trialled in Asia together with an upgraded Saracen (6 x 6) armoured personnel carrier, while the Alvis Stalwart with the same has been evaluated by the UK.

In May 1994, Alvis Vehicles announced that it had been awarded a contract worth US$10 million for the supply of upgrade kits for Saladin, Saracen and Ferret vehicles from an undisclosed country in Asia, believed to be Indonesia.

[Source]

Quote
To begin with, what about one with the turret and 30 mm L21 RARDEN cannon from the FV721 Fox:


If you offer up a Scorpion/Scimitar/Fox turret to a Saladin hull it looks lost: just too small. However putting a RARDEN into the original Saladin turret would be perfectly feasible and make a lot of sense, since the Fox turned out to have some mobility issues  due to being too top heavy.

The Airfix 1/76th Scorpion kit comes with an optional RARDEN too, so it would be really easy to do this with the ex-JB Saladin.


I think the top=heaviness of the Fox had a lot to do with the size and weight of the turret compared to the hull.   Putting a tiny Fox turret on a massive Saladin hull should fix that quite handily.   Putting a 30mm into replace the 76mm suffers from a rather obvious problem in that while the armour penetration may marginally improve with the 30mm, you lose the ability to throw a handy HE, Smoke or SPLINTEX round.   Having observed the effect in particular of the latter on an earth bund at a firepower demonstration, I'll just say I'm glad it wasn't me who was the target.

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2015, 08:39:25 AM »
What about Australia and/or New Zealand having some and using them in Vietnam?

The Australian Army was heavily wedded to the M113 FOV which is why they'd decided to retire all their wheeled AFVs in the early 1960s.  I suspect the Saladin might have been a bit of a surprise to the NLF the first time they encountered them but their role would have been rather limited because of their lack of off-road mobility in either the dense jungle or the open paddy fields characteristic of the coastal plains of South Vietnam.

Not sure if the Aussies had to do it, but how about for "road-runner" ops protecting supply convoys? Getting a 76mm cannister round back your way can radically alter your plans for the ambush...

If you find the ambushers before they spring their ambush.  The M113 FSVs were apparently often used for "road-runner" ops in South Vietnam and their presence was sufficient to scare the ambushers off attacking the convoys.   The clear difference between the FSV and the Saladin though was that the FSV could go off-road whereas the Saladin might not be able to because of the soft soil/mud present in the Paddy fields/Jungle along the roads.    I'd suggest that the Saladin was an excellent vehicle for it's day but one which wasn't well suited to where we were fighting.

Offline Weaver

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Re: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2015, 06:48:50 PM »
To begin with, what about one with the turret and 30 mm L21 RARDEN cannon from the FV721 Fox:

If you offer up a Scorpion/Scimitar/Fox turret to a Saladin hull it looks lost: just too small. However putting a RARDEN into the original Saladin turret would be perfectly feasible and make a lot of sense, since the Fox turned out to have some mobility issues  due to being too top heavy.

The Airfix 1/76th Scorpion kit comes with an optional RARDEN too, so it would be really easy to do this with the ex-JB Saladin.

I think the top=heaviness of the Fox had a lot to do with the size and weight of the turret compared to the hull.   Putting a tiny Fox turret on a massive Saladin hull should fix that quite handily.   Putting a 30mm into replace the 76mm suffers from a rather obvious problem in that while the armour penetration may marginally improve with the 30mm, you lose the ability to throw a handy HE, Smoke or SPLINTEX round.   Having observed the effect in particular of the latter on an earth bund at a firepower demonstration, I'll just say I'm glad it wasn't me who was the target.

Yes that was precisely my point about using the 6x6 chassis for the RARDEN because the 4x4 was too small.

I take back my statement about the Fox turret looking too small on the Saladin. I remembered offering it up and thinking that years ago, but I've just dug some bits out of the stash to do a mockup with a built-up Scimitar turret, and it looks fine. I think when I originally compared it, I forgot that the Airfix Scorpion/Scimitar turret has a plate underneath it that makes it taller.

The point about 30mm vs 76mm applies just as much to the Scorpion and Scimitar: the British Army decided it was worth having both. One advantage of the RARDEN in a two-man turret is that the mechanism holds two 3-round clips and it's normally fired in single-shot mode, so the commander doesn't have to spend as much time loading the gun as he does with the 76mm. A Saracen hull with an aluminium Fox turret would be significantly lighter than a standard Saracen, so this combination might be more suitable if the emphasis was on recce rather than fire support.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

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Offline Weaver

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Re: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2015, 06:52:48 PM »
What about Australia and/or New Zealand having some and using them in Vietnam?

The Australian Army was heavily wedded to the M113 FOV which is why they'd decided to retire all their wheeled AFVs in the early 1960s.  I suspect the Saladin might have been a bit of a surprise to the NLF the first time they encountered them but their role would have been rather limited because of their lack of off-road mobility in either the dense jungle or the open paddy fields characteristic of the coastal plains of South Vietnam.

Not sure if the Aussies had to do it, but how about for "road-runner" ops protecting supply convoys? Getting a 76mm cannister round back your way can radically alter your plans for the ambush...

If you find the ambushers before they spring their ambush.  The M113 FSVs were apparently often used for "road-runner" ops in South Vietnam and their presence was sufficient to scare the ambushers off attacking the convoys.   The clear difference between the FSV and the Saladin though was that the FSV could go off-road whereas the Saladin might not be able to because of the soft soil/mud present in the Paddy fields/Jungle along the roads.    I'd suggest that the Saladin was an excellent vehicle for it's day but one which wasn't well suited to where we were fighting.

Fair point. If you look at the areas where the Saladin has done well in combat, it's either urban or stony desert(ish) terrain, i.e. classic armoured car territory.

It's a shame from a purely commercial POV that the Saladin wasn't developed more: the French have shown that there's plenty of export market for similar armoured cars, and the Saladin platform stands up well by comparison with them. All it would need is the repower pack and more weapon options.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
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Offline Weaver

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Re: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2015, 06:58:27 PM »
Saladin with Swingfire (mockup only):



Saladin with Oman mods:

"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2015, 08:58:31 AM »
I've always wondered about the asymmetry of the Saladin's turret.  I think I'd prefer a new turret, with a 30mm Rarden and four side mounted, elevating Swingfires, to the twin Swingfire, 76mm version.  That would eliminate the need for the mounting structures and of course, provide more room in a rear overhang for reloads.   8)

Alternatively, you could go with just 8 Swingfires on  the turret rear which elevate to fire...  :-*

Offline Weaver

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Re: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2015, 10:03:07 AM »
There was a Ferret turret with four elevating Swingfires, but it was only a one-manner with a 7.62mm for backup. RARDENs have been put into one-man turrets, but since it's a clip-feed job there's still a manual 'loader' task to perform.

Wonder what the Delco turret with a 25mm bushmaster + 2 x TOWs would look like on it?

The problem with using any traditional armoured car for ATGWs is space for reloads. An APC hull has the volume to carry many more.

An interesting option would be a refit by some country with Warsaw Pact support: AT-3 Sagger rail on the turret roof, or maybe two on the bacik of the turret?
« Last Edit: April 15, 2015, 10:15:48 AM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

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Re: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2015, 10:09:59 AM »
Wonder if the AMX-13 DCA SPAAG turret would go it? An AMX-13 isn't very big and a similar but different turret was a standard option on Panhard AML (4x4) and ERC (6x6) hulls.

"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2015, 02:56:30 PM »
There was a Ferret turret with four elevating Swingfires, but it was only a one-manner with a 7.62mm for backup. RARDENs have been put into one-man turrets, but since it's a clip-feed job there's still a manual 'loader' task to perform.

Wonder what the Delco turret with a 25mm bushmaster + 2 x TOWs would look like on it?

The problem with using any traditional armoured car for ATGWs is space for reloads. An APC hull has the volume to carry many more.

An interesting option would be a refit by some country with Warsaw Pact support: AT-3 Sagger rail on the turret roof, or maybe two on the bacik of the turret?

The advantage of using all your missiles (and not carrying reloads) is that you don't have to exit the vehicle to reload the launcher.  Just load at the time of bombing up and when expended, return to the bombing up point and reload.   All you need is a "shelf" on the rear of the turret which the missile cannisters clip to and which elevates their muzzles over the front of the turret.  The Ferret Mk.5 was a similar system with four missiles.  My idea is something closer to the Striker version of the  CVR(T) but with a rotating turret.

The 30mm clip is a problem with the Rarden but I understand from my reading that a belt fed version was designed but never introduced into service.  The weapon though, has a bad problem with "Rarden-Thumb" - which apparently effects many gunners - where they reach into the breach and feel with their thumb to see if a round is loaded or not and at that point, the working parts slam forward, removing/smashing their thumb very badly.

Offline Weaver

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Re: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2015, 08:26:44 PM »
This is a Jordanian Scorpion refitted with a Russian 2A42 30mm cannon and two ATGWs. Don't know if it went into production or what the ATGWs were:



A similar update would go well on the Saladin. The gun would fit easily and have belt feed, thereby reducing crew tasks, and the tall, narrow turret would take the ATGWs in vertical pairs without overhanging the hull.

Actually, looking at the asymetry of the Saladin turret, it might be better to have the ATGWs in a quad pack on left side of the turret.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2015, 08:31:58 PM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline apophenia

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Re: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2015, 12:50:23 PM »
The missiles are KBP Kornet-E (9M133, aka AT-14). JMSS (Jordan Manufacturing and Services Solutions) was offering Scorion and Scimitar rebuilds with Steyr diesels. The Scimitar was to be armed with the 30mm 2A42 (presumably for commonality with Jordanian BMP-2s).

There's no mention of those CRV-T projects on the KADDB website now so, I suppose, there were no takers.
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Re: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2015, 03:10:03 AM »
Some more inspiration:

Halftrack:



Smaller gun:



Scifi:



Various:

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2015, 03:16:51 AM »
Did anyone ever put a RARDEN on a Saladin? I know we've talked about it earlier in this thread, but that always seemed like an idea with some potential to me.

Thanks,

Logan

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2015, 09:08:25 AM »
Not that I am aware of Jon.  I agree, it would have been a sensible upgrade path but it was one that was never pursued.  I would also suggest any of the upper range of 30-57mm automatic cannon would have been a good bet to replace the 76mm.   Perhaps we should buy all the Saladins we can and regun them?  ;)

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2015, 10:38:29 AM »
Is that top black and white one a TEL for a Blue Water?