Author Topic: M108 SPH, M109 and K55 SPG/H, M992 and K66 FAASV  (Read 12420 times)

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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M108 SPH, M109 and K55 SPG/H, M992 and K66 FAASV
« on: January 19, 2012, 07:44:42 PM »
Wikipedia - M108 105mm Self-Propelled Howiter


(Click for larger image.  Image source: Wikipedia)


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Wikipedia - M109 155mm Self-Propelled Gun/Howitzer and K55  155mm Self-Propelled Gun/Howitzer


(Click for larger image.  Image source: Wikipedia)

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Wikipedia - M992 Field Artillery Ammunition Supply Vehicle and K66 Field Artillery Ammunition Supply Vehicle


(Click for larger image.  Image source: Wikipedia)

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How about an M108 with a longer gun tube?  As an alternative to the Abbot 105mm SPG? 

How about an M109 with a 5.0"/127mm gun?  With a sliding breech block replacing the interrupted screw breech firing separate loading cartridge ammunition?  A possible USMC artillery system to provide longer range supporting fires.  Make it even more interesting, have it crewed by Navy Gunner's Mates as a Naval Gunfire Support Unit for the Marine Corps. 
« Last Edit: January 19, 2012, 07:46:13 PM by Jeffry Fontaine »
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Offline Maverick

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Re: M108 SPH, M109 and K55 SPG/H, M992 and K66 FAASV
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2012, 08:29:36 PM »
On the subject of upgunning the Paladin, how about a fixed superstructure and a waaay bigger gun?  Or even a double barrelled job like that Russian monster?

Regards,

John
Regards,

John

Offline Gingie

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Re: M108 SPH, M109 and K55 SPG/H, M992 and K66 FAASV
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2013, 06:14:25 AM »
Canadian Artillery with Trials and Evaluations unit testing a FAASV & RDM Gunned M114 155mm gun. Wish I had better pics from this trial, but I think they were all thrown out.


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Re: M108 SPH, M109 and K55 SPG/H, M992 and K66 FAASV
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2013, 07:04:22 AM »
the US built a few (six?) of these for fast deployment via C-151 aircraft -don't think they were ever used tho ....

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Re: M108 SPH, M109 and K55 SPG/H, M992 and K66 FAASV
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2013, 07:29:35 AM »
Canadian Artillery with Trials and Evaluations unit testing a FAASV & RDM Gunned M114 155mm gun. Wish I had better pics from this trial, but I think they were all thrown out.




Err...

Quote
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To register click on the REGISTER button in the menu above.


Can you please supply larger image?
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Re: M108 SPH, M109 and K55 SPG/H, M992 and K66 FAASV
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2013, 07:30:25 AM »
the US built a few (six?) of these for fast deployment via C-151 aircraft -don't think they were ever used tho ....

I wish you could get a Roland conversion on 1/35.
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Offline Gingie

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Re: M108 SPH, M109 and K55 SPG/H, M992 and K66 FAASV
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2013, 11:14:07 AM »
Elite resin made a Roland turret for use on a Marder. That and an M-109 hull would get you 80% of the way there.


Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: M108 SPH, M109 and K55 SPG/H, M992 and K66 FAASV
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2013, 11:27:38 AM »
the US built a few (six?) of these for fast deployment via C-151 aircraft -don't think they were ever used tho ....


As far as the numbers procured by the U.S. Army where it was known as the MIM-115 Roland.  It was enough for one battalion and apparently no maintenance spares if Wikipedia is to be believed:

Quote
From Wikipedia - Roland Surface to Air Missile: On January 9, 1975 the United States Army selected Roland 2 as the winner of its SHORADS (Short-Range Air Defense System) competition to replace the MIM-72 Chaparral and M163 VADS divisional air defense systems with a requirement for more than 500 fire units to be designated the MIM-115. Hughes Aircraft and Boeing Aerospace were contracted to develop American Roland which would have been installed in a removable module on the M109 howitzer chassis. The American system used the European fire control system with an American search radar of greater range and enhanced ECCM capability. Initial production of fire units to equip 4 battalions and 1,000 missiles (against an anticipated requirement for 14,000) was approved in October 1978 but subsequently reduced to just 1 battalion. Difficulties in technology transfer, integration and commonality difficulties and rising costs meant only a single Army National Guard battalion was ever equipped with the type with the 27 launchers and 600 missiles installed on 6x6 flatbed trucks instead of tracked carriers. The XMIM-115 was never type-classified and served for less than a decade, being retired in 1988.


Additional images at this link to Andreas Parsch' Designation Systems page on the XMIM-115A Roland SAM
« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 11:45:06 AM by Jeffry Fontaine »
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Re: M108 SPH, M109 and K55 SPG/H, M992 and K66 FAASV
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2013, 02:44:00 PM »
Elite resin made a Roland turret for use on a Marder. That and an M-109 hull would get you 80% of the way there.


Would that be this one?
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Offline Gingie

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Re: M108 SPH, M109 and K55 SPG/H, M992 and K66 FAASV
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2013, 05:46:54 AM »

   



Offline Gingie

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Re: M108 SPH, M109 and K55 SPG/H, M992 and K66 FAASV
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2013, 05:55:12 AM »



And what it looked like on the truck:
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Re: M108 SPH, M109 and K55 SPG/H, M992 and K66 FAASV
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2013, 06:03:02 AM »
Ta
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: M108 SPH, M109 and K55 SPG/H, M992 and K66 FAASV
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2013, 03:25:33 PM »
The M54 truck looks a bit overloaded there with that armoured module on it's back.  :o

Here is another alternative M-108 vehicle.  Developed in Taiwan with a 155mm gun/how.





Janes describes it as:

Quote
XT-69 155 mm self-propelled extended range gun

Development/Description:

The XT-68 (?) 155 mm self-propelled extended range gun was developed by the Combined Service Forces and is identical in layout and concept to the basic XT-69 described in a separate entry.

It is fitted with a 155 mm/45 calibre weapon which may have been developed from the towed South African Denel Ordnance (previously LIW) 155 mm G5 or the Belgian/Canadian SRC International GC 45, although the elevating mass is more like the Israeli Soltam Systems 155 mm M-71 gun-howitzer than these two weapons.

The 155 mm/45 calibre ordnance has a multi-baffle muzzle brake, a fume extractor and a travelling lock that folds back onto the glacis plate when not in use. Maximum range is said to be 30,000 m with the Extended-Range Full-Bore projectile, and over 35,000 m with a base bleed projectile. A maximum rate of fire of 6 rds/min can be attained due to a pneumatically assisted loading device which enables the weapon to be uniformly loaded at any angle of elevation. Elevation is estimated to be from 0 to +70º and traverse 30º left and right. The weapon is used in conjunction with a battery fire-control system developed by the Sun Yat-sen Scientific Research Institute in Taiwan.

This system has a crew of five and is fitted with night vision equipment for the driver and a 12.7 mm M2 HB anti-aircraft machine gun. No NBC system is fitted.
The chassis is based on the US United Defense M108/M109 self-propelled artillery system covered under the United States.

Status:

In service with Taiwan. Production complete. Some sources have indicated that a total of 45 of these systems is in service under the production designation of the T-69. This system was never offered on the export market. Taiwanese artillery capability has been further strengthened by the recent arrival of 28 United Defense LP M109A5 systems from the United States.


« Last Edit: March 03, 2013, 05:05:24 PM by Rickshaw »

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: M108 SPH, M109 and K55 SPG/H, M992 and K66 FAASV
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2013, 04:31:34 PM »
The M35 truck looks a bit overloaded there with that armoured module on it's back.  :o

That is a 5t truck in the M54 series family of vehicles.  One of the key ID features is the large air-cleaner filter can on the left front (driver's side) fender. 
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: M108 SPH, M109 and K55 SPG/H, M992 and K66 FAASV
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2013, 05:06:28 PM »
The M35 truck looks a bit overloaded there with that armoured module on it's back.  :o

That is a 5t truck in the M54 series family of vehicles.  One of the key ID features is the large air-cleaner filter can on the left front (driver's side) fender.

Now corrected, thank you.  Still heavy overloaded, the rear springs are near full compression if not actually fully compressed and the front is raised to the limit of its springs.

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Re: M108 SPH, M109 and K55 SPG/H, M992 and K66 FAASV
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2014, 03:33:07 AM »
Little known fact:  Australia briefly used the M108 in Vietnam.  I understand they served with  A Sqn 3 Cav Regt in Vietnam in 1967 – 68:


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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: M108 SPH, M109 and K55 SPG/H, M992 and K66 FAASV
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2014, 12:45:22 PM »
We also had attached to us a troop of US Army M109 155mm SP Howitzers in South Vietnam for about two years.  The M108s were relatively short lived though, being replaced by the conventional 105mm M2 Howitzers IIRC.  I seem to remember that the M108s were only part of 1 ATF for about six months, until the shortfall caused by the relatively short range of L7 105mm Pack.How. was cured by the hurried introduction of the M2 How.

It's a great shame that we didn't stick with the M108/M109 but the army's thinking was still dominated for such a long time by PENTOMIC ideas.

I was just looking through Mike Cecil's "Mud & Dust" which is a superb pictorial reference on Australian Army vehicles in South Vietnam but was surprised to find no reference to either the M108 or the M109s.  I know we had them but he doesn't seem to mention them. 

Offline Volkodav

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Re: M108 SPH, M109 and K55 SPG/H, M992 and K66 FAASV
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2014, 01:28:03 PM »
Light infantry mafia, don't need anything big , armoured or expensive.  Loved by Australian politicians since 1901.

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: M108 SPH, M109 and K55 SPG/H, M992 and K66 FAASV
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2014, 02:22:58 PM »
Light infantry mafia, don't need anything big , armoured or expensive.  Loved by Australian politicians since 1901.

Bit of an exaggeration, there.  Light Infantry really only came to predominate in the 1950s.  Before that, it was the Horsed infantryman and then the mechanised infantryman's viewpoint.  Now, its returned to the mechanised infantryman's viewpoint.  Even at the height of the various "mafias'" control, there were people advocating alternative viewpoints.  Each "mafias" predominance was, remember built on the success that they had experienced in conflict.  Lighthorse - Boer and WWI, Mechanised - Western Desert, Light Infantry - South-West Pacific and Malaya.

The problem in each case was the assumption that the next war would be like the last.   The advantage has been that when faced with the reality of change, the Australian Army has been willing to adopt it quite readily.   We are not mired in the past (although, I know some would suggest otherwise).

Offline Volkodav

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Re: M108 SPH, M109 and K55 SPG/H, M992 and K66 FAASV
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2014, 03:44:40 PM »
Agreed but exaggeration can be fun. 

My thinking behind the light infantry mafia comment was the abandonment of post war mechanisation plans post WWII and motorisation proposals post WWI by conservative minded governments, or more specifically PMs.  The issue wasn't just financial as the changes came before finances were in question and while the memory of the lessons learned were still fresh, it was a case of particular, non-defence minded individuals (although one of them was a vetran) not seeing the need and diverting funds away from defence all together.  The army wasn't the only victim with defence leaders and experts being ignored across the board.  IMO had a certain individual been PM 3 or 4 years earlier there would have been no regular army following the demobilisation of the 2nd AIF, we would have simply returned to the militia system in place before the war.  Had that individual not been elected until later or at all, who know where Australia would be now.

Rant off

Although then it could make an interesting scenario, Menzies is elected in 1945, or 1951 (or not at all) instead of 1948. >:D

Offline apophenia

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Re: M108 SPH, M109 and K55 SPG/H, M992 and K66 FAASV
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2014, 03:47:18 PM »
Thanks for the RDM M114 images, Gingie!  :)
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Re: M108 SPH, M109 and K55 SPG/H, M992 and K66 FAASV
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2019, 05:54:05 AM »
In July 1981, a report was submitted in close collaboration with the artillery system engineering working group (ASEWG) to develop a generation of concept self-propelled howitzers with anti-armor capabilities, along with all their various support systems. The M109A2, dubbed Class I, was used as a baseline from which these various concepts were drawn up and compared to. The main commonality between all concepts was that they used 155 mm howitzers.

Class II concepts were designed with the express purpose of defeating moving armored targets, surviving counterbattery threats, and providing fire on a timely basis. Concept IIA consisted of a casemate SPH. Concept IIB consisted of an all-new turreted SPH. And lastly, Concept IIC was a heavily modified M109 SPH using systems designed for the Class II concepts.

Concept IIA:





Concept IIB:





The objectives for Class III were identical for for Class II, and the same shoot-and-scoot philosophy was being heavily emphasized. Similarly, Concepts IIIA and IIIB were casemate and turreted SPHs, respectively. The major difference between the two classes was the ammunition being used.

Concept IIIA:




Source
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Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: M108 SPH, M109 and K55 SPG/H, M992 and K66 FAASV
« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2022, 04:08:38 AM »
I recently read that Brazil donated some of its retired M108APs to Uruguay.

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/landwarfareintl/brazil-aims-to-donate-howitzers-urutu-apcs-to-cash-strapped-uruguay/



Confession, I've always hated the anemic look of the M108. The gun is just way too small for the turret and chassis. I think some users may have converted them into M109s, but other uses might be to remove the turret altogether and place a larger gun in the same position (like the Taiwanese XT-69 or Egyptian SP-122) or converting them into a driver training or C2 vehicle like the Belgians did with the M108 VBCL. All of these are practical, but kind of boring.

So, I started thinking, was there another weapon that doesn't have the recoil of a 155mm gun, but might be an attractive upgrade option for a user that comes into a large number of surplus M108s?

I think you could either replace the gun in the existing M108 turret or do a full turret upgrade with the T7 turret that they tried out on the LAV III.





https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/south-african-artillery-cannon-guns-prototypes-projects-concepts-etc.22573/

Cheers,

Logan

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Re: M108 SPH, M109 and K55 SPG/H, M992 and K66 FAASV
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2022, 12:43:49 AM »
Maybe a rocket pack instead of the turret?  Maybe something such as the Astros II series (keeping the Brazilian connection):

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Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: M108 SPH, M109 and K55 SPG/H, M992 and K66 FAASV
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2022, 04:23:42 AM »
As a counter to the LAR-160s operated by Venezuela and Argentina on AMX-13 and TAM hulls, respectively? I can certainly see that as an outgrowth of the XLF-40 program as alternative mount for the Astros.

https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/xlf-40_spmrl/

Offline apophenia

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Re: M108 SPH, M109 and K55 SPG/H, M992 and K66 FAASV
« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2022, 06:37:28 AM »
What about reviving the ENU's M24 Chaffees as artillery rocket launcher vehicle? Retired in 2019, Uruguay's Chaffees had been updated back in the '80s (with Brazilian-made Saab-Scania DN11 diesels and Scania GAV 762 gearboxes).

[Edit] AP-122 M108 = My take on the Uruguayan M108 re-gunned with a 122 mm D-30 (to match calibres with the ENU's ex-Czech 2S1 SPHs).
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« Last Edit: August 19, 2022, 03:40:47 AM by apophenia »
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