Author Topic: Boeing 707, 727 and 737  (Read 29842 times)

Offline ysi_maniac

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Boeing 707, 727 and 737
« on: October 10, 2013, 01:24:42 PM »
Some ideas about T tail Boeing 707. I know I should use 727 tail, but Tupolev  t-tails are so baroque!






Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Boeing 707, 727 and 737
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2013, 07:36:27 AM »
As a kid in the 70's, I'd read that the Soviets accused the US of having our airliners developed as bombers.   At the time, I thought it would be very cool to have a 707, 727, and 737 as some kind of missile carrier.   :)
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Offline Kerick

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Re: Boeing 707, 727 and 737
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2013, 09:52:24 AM »
If it aint baroque, don't fix it!

Offline Litvyak

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Re: Boeing 707, 727 and 737
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2013, 10:15:29 AM »
As a kid in the 70's, I'd read that the Soviets accused the US of having our airliners developed as bombers.   At the time, I thought it would be very cool to have a 707, 727, and 737 as some kind of missile carrier.   :)

That's kinda hilarious considering the relationship between the Tu-16 and Tu-104, or Tu-95 and Tu-114...
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Offline Diamondback

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Re: Boeing 707, 727 and 737
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2013, 12:14:36 PM »
That's kinda hilarious considering the relationship between the Tu-16 and Tu-104, or Tu-95 and Tu-114...
Projecting much on Ivan's part? Just 'cause Nazi bastards and Commie bastards alike did it... and yes, a large portion of the Boeing propliners leveraged bomber engineering, like the 200/221 Monomail v. B-9 Death Angel, XB-15 v. 314 Clipper, B-17 v. 307 Stratoliner, B-29 v. 367 Stratofreighter/377 Stratocruiser... originally, the KC-135 and 707 were identical but the airlines wanted a bigger-section fuselage for more passenger room.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Boeing 707, 727 and 737
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2013, 02:56:48 AM »
I thought it would be very cool to have a 707, 727, and 737 as some kind of missile carrier.   :)


Well, in essence the 737 has accomplished that in the P-8:



« Last Edit: October 12, 2013, 03:04:22 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Re: Boeing 707, 727 and 737
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2013, 03:09:37 AM »
One idea I have had for a while is to combine the features of the P-8 with that of the Catbird:



I have this scenario whereby the F-35 is cancelled, along with most other fighters and instead, to keep the USAF operating, they develop the Catbird into an operational platform.
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Re: Boeing 707, 727 and 737
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2013, 03:12:08 AM »
Speaking of the 737, this might be of interest to some:



Click on for bigger view
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Re: Boeing 707, 727 and 737
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2013, 03:17:53 AM »
and the same for 727:

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Re: Boeing 707, 727 and 737
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2013, 03:25:52 AM »
How about turboprop or propfan versions of the 707 and 737?
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Offline jcf

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Re: Boeing 707, 727 and 737
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2013, 04:52:50 AM »
That's kinda hilarious considering the relationship between the Tu-16 and Tu-104, or Tu-95 and Tu-114...
Projecting much on Ivan's part? Just 'cause Nazi bastards and Commie bastards alike did it... and yes, a large portion of the Boeing propliners leveraged bomber engineering, like the 200/221 Monomail v. B-9 Death Angel, XB-15 v. 314 Clipper, B-17 v. 307 Stratoliner, B-29 v. 367 Stratofreighter/377 Stratocruiser... originally, the KC-135 and 707 were identical but the airlines wanted a bigger-section fuselage for more passenger room.

Some of the lessons learned on the Model 200 were applied to the design of the B-9, but the two were
not directly related, and there was certainly no bomber engineering leveraged in the design of the
Model 200.

A bit of trivia that may interest some, there were only ever two Monomails, the Model 200(221A)
and the Model 221. The 221 had a stretched fuselage and a number of differences to the 200, which
was in turn was renumbered as 221A when modified to a configuration similar to the 221.

Seattle area modeler Jim Schubert has been working on a set of Model 200 Monomail drawings for
a proposed resin kit, in 1/72 for those who care about such things.
 ;)

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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Boeing 707, 727 and 737
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2013, 05:07:14 AM »
EP-8 anyone?  Model using a lot of the EP-3 "lumps and bumps" on a P-8, or equivalent, airframe.  One of my former employers, L-3 Communications, Integrated Systems Division, would be perfect to produce this; besides the USAF/RAF "Rivet Joint" aircraft, they maintain, update, and convert the USN's EP-3 fleet and they've got plenty of experience on 737/BBJ completions.

For that matter, how about P-8 style wingtips or 737-style winglets on CFM-56 powered 707's with whatever electronics fit works withthe backstory?

Offline jcf

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Re: Boeing 707, 727 and 737
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2013, 05:49:14 AM »
I'd go for the swept tips, which were first used on the 767-400, and are now appearing
on 777s. I think they'd look good on a 707 or 720 based aircraft, and use the 737
AEW&C style array.

Posted this before, a handy link to the D6 planning manuals for Boeing commercial
aircraft:
http://www.boeing.com/boeing/commercial/airports/plan_manuals.page
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Boeing 707, 727 and 737
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2013, 06:20:58 AM »
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/graham-warwick/2007/08/p3-to-p8-an-airsea-saga-1/
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/wp-content/uploads/mt/flightglobalweb/blogs/graham-warwick/757sm.jpg

My uncle used to work in airfreight and I remember him telling my that their 727 freighter could cruise just over the speed of sound flying NZ to Aust with a tail wind.  A cleaned up, re engined strike variant could possibly have been capable of super cruise.

Offline Scooterman

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Re: Boeing 707, 727 and 737
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2013, 10:34:29 AM »
EP-8 anyone?  Model using a lot of the EP-3 "lumps and bumps" on a P-8, or equivalent, airframe.  One of my former employers, L-3 Communications, Integrated Systems Division, would be perfect to produce this; besides the USAF/RAF "Rivet Joint" aircraft, they maintain, update, and convert the USN's EP-3 fleet and they've got plenty of experience on 737/BBJ completions.

Ahem....
« Last Edit: October 12, 2013, 10:37:28 AM by Scooterman »

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Boeing 707, 727 and 737
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2013, 05:57:02 AM »
Speaking of 727s:






And a conventional one...

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Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Boeing 707, 727 and 737
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2013, 11:56:18 AM »
Love 727 UHB :)

What was the problem with all those pusher prop projects of '80s?

Offline Talos

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Re: Boeing 707, 727 and 737
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2013, 12:05:41 PM »
Love 727 UHB :)

What was the problem with all those pusher prop projects of '80s?


Two very important ones. One, it's incredibly loud. Loud enough to cause fatigue in the adjacent parts of the airframe. The other is there's no fan casing to catch a prop blade when one inevitably comes off. There's a good chance it would go right into the fuselage, which is a problem. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/DAL1288a.jpg This, but worse.

Offline Diamondback

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Re: Boeing 707, 727 and 737
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2013, 12:20:12 PM »
What you're calling "727 UHB" is very reminiscent of a Boeing/Mitsubishi (IIRC) project called 7J7, to jointly build a commuter-jet for the Japanese market.

It failed mostly because Mitsubishi wanted technology transfers that Boeing was unwilling to transfer at that time--specifically their wing technology.

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Re: Boeing 707, 727 and 737
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2013, 12:38:21 PM »
Yes, the  Unducted Fan (or Unducked - see below ;)) did suffrage big time from noise.



They are making potential comebacks though thanks to new technology such as active noise cancellation.  They also go by multiple names, including Open Rotor Turbofans.
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Re: Boeing 707, 727 and 737
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2013, 12:43:01 PM »

It failed mostly because Mitsubishi wanted technology transfers that Boeing was unwilling to transfer at that time--specifically their wing technology.


Err are you sure of that?  Japanese involvement was something like 25% IIRC and I thought it failed mainly because of the same reasons as other such UDF proposals did - i.e those detailed above by Talos and also the perception that customers wouldn't like them (old fashioned with props)"

Either way, the 7J7 was certainly attractive.  Makes me think to do a similar 737 variant.

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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Boeing 707, 727 and 737
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2013, 01:08:33 PM »
Love 727 UHB :)

What was the problem with all those pusher prop projects of '80s?


Two very important ones. One, it's incredibly loud. Loud enough to cause fatigue in the adjacent parts of the airframe. The other is there's no fan casing to catch a prop blade when one inevitably comes off. There's a good chance it would go right into the fuselage, which is a problem. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/DAL1288a.jpg This, but worse.

I remember I first ride in a Herc and realising what the red parallel lines inside the fuselage signified..... :o

Offline Diamondback

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Re: Boeing 707, 727 and 737
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2013, 01:20:10 PM »
Greg, my sources worked for Boeing at the time--and it came up in context of reservations about the hasty farm-out of major subassemblies and the large amount of technology-transfer on 787.

Multiple observers have voiced strong opinions to me that the first five to ten aircraft should have been built completely in-house to validate and debug the engineering, THEN start farming smaller pieces out to the subcontractors and progressively let them do more as they demonstrate they can deliver... those first few took a LOT of rework to assemble because A LOT of the subassemblies weren't as "Plug and Play" as they were designed to be due to manufacturing issues...

Don't press a lot on naming sources, as I get a lot of things that aren't supposed to be heard outside the company.

Offline finsrin

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Re: Boeing 707, 727 and 737
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2013, 01:40:52 PM »
Yes, the  Unducted Fan (or Unducked - see below ;)) did suffrage big time from noise.



They are making potential comebacks though thanks to new technology such as active noise cancellation.  They also go by multiple names, including Open Rotor Turbofans.


Looks to me like a Ducked Fan.
Crow or Hawk mounted would be Un Ducked,,, right ?

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Re: Boeing 707, 727 and 737
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2013, 01:52:01 PM »
Greg, my sources worked for Boeing at the time--and it came up in context of reservations about the hasty farm-out of major subassemblies and the large amount of technology-transfer on 787.

Multiple observers have voiced strong opinions to me that the first five to ten aircraft should have been built completely in-house to validate and debug the engineering, THEN start farming smaller pieces out to the subcontractors and progressively let them do more as they demonstrate they can deliver... those first few took a LOT of rework to assemble because A LOT of the subassemblies weren't as "Plug and Play" as they were designed to be due to manufacturing issues...

Don't press a lot on naming sources, as I get a lot of things that aren't supposed to be heard outside the company.

Are you talking about the 7J7 or the 787 here?  This still doesn't alter my comments regarding the reasons behind the 7J7 failure to be produced.
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