Author Topic: 'might have beens' ... Finland  (Read 14037 times)

Offline tsrjoe

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2013, 03:45:32 AM »
Jyrki's books are a great source of 'might have been' information within their texts, as is the recent Finnish
Vampire mongraph which has a number of very interesting types mentioned too ... Sea Fury, Meteor  8)

il sit down over the weekend and note any to add to the listings

a Finnish friend and i have had a cursory glance through the National Archive Service ("Kansallisarkisto"), a few types mentioned i have previously posted on, eg. P.1 Explorer, http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=1775.msg24932#msg24932
but nothing we could find covering the 'modern' period ! im not sure if this was looking in the wrong areas (possibly, as i am unfamiliar and stil trying to learn the language) or if the material has not been filed as yet ?

I would love to have a looksee through the Valmet/Patria project files tho, there are designs for a jet trainer type (circa 60's and 70's) for which i have a note of its design which i would love to see drawings of to go with the VL. 'jet Vihuri' and Karhumäki KH.1 jet trainer project of the 1950's :) (im also pretty sure the company designers 'must' have sketched slightly more belligerent types too!)  ;)

cheers, Joe
« Last Edit: September 15, 2013, 08:04:25 PM by tsrjoe »

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2016, 08:12:03 AM »
Something for the future:

Quote
Defence Forces Logistics Department Issues Request for Information for the Acquisition of a Hornet Replacement
(Source: Finland Ministry of Defence; issued April 22, 2016)

The Defence Forces Logistics Department has sent a Request for Information for the acquisition of a Hornet replacement to the UK, France, Sweden and US defense administrations. They are asked to forward the Request for Information for future multi-purpose fighters to the appropriate manufacturers in their country.

A Request for information (RFI) precedes the actual purchase. After analyzing the responses to the Request for Information, invitations to tender are issued, and the actual purchase of the aircraft is not made until after that.

The Request for Information aims to collect opinions on what solutions recipients can propose to replace the Hornet's capabilities in the post-2030 security environment. The Request for Information acquires information that is used for detailed planning and budgeting, procurement and purchasing, allowing the refinement of the requirements for the multi-purpose fighters.

The request for information requested budgetary estimates of the cost of the acquisition, the operation and maintenance of the air systems, and the methodology of how they were calculated.

The systems under consideration comprise, in addition to the aircraft themselves, other necessary equipment such as weapons, training equipment, management systems and arrangements necessary for maintenance.

Respondents may also provide solutions that can, for example, include more than one type of aircraft and/or unmanned aerial vehicles, to complement the operational performance of the multi-purpose fighter aircraft.

The information request was sent to the defense administrations of the countries which currently produce such multi-purpose fighter jets and related systems, and which could meet the requirements of Finnish Hornet's performance over the years. The RFI also contains detailed information about the air defense policies and future level of performance. Many of the data as well as the responses to the RFI, are confidential.

The retirement date of the Hornet has been included in the overall schedule. The basic requirement is that the new multi-purpose fighter jets must be in service when the Hornet fleet will have to be decommissioned. The acquisition is very large and complex.

Replies to the RFI have been requested by the end of 2016. The tender for the Hornet replacement solution is due to be issued in 2018, and the award decision is planned in 2021.

At this stage the Air Force does not want to restrict the types of aircraft that can be proposed. For the preparation of the contract, and for the competitive evaluation, it is good to obtain information about a range of aircraft types.

Nevertheless, answers to the Request for Information are expected the following aircraft types: Boeing F-15 and F/A-18E/F; Dassault Rafale; Eurofighter Typhoon; Lockheed Martin F-16 and F-35 and Saab Gripen.

Information is also needed about related training for new systems. For example, instructors must start using the new aircraft -- and training of technical personnel -- is usually provided by the armed forces of the supplier nation. The Air Force is also interested in the early development of the use of these systems, which is usually provided by the manufacturer countries' defense administrations. Thus, at least parts of the replies to the RFIs are likely to come from national defense administrations.

The H-X project calls for the new multipurpose fighter to enter service from 2025. The Hornet’s design life cycle will end by the end of the next decade.

The project “owner” is the commander of the Air Force, the project's technical and commercial preparation is under the responsibility of the Defence Forces Logistics Department, under the material and political guidance of the Ministry of Defence.

For the project’s RFI phase, Air Force Commander Major-General Kim Jäämeri, Ministry of Defence project coordinator Lauri Puranen and Defence Forces Logistics Deputy Director Brigadier-General Kari Renko are familiarizing the representatives of the administrations and manufacturers of the different countries about the Request for Information, its objective and about the project as a whole.

-ends-


Whilst I fully expect the F-35 to be the preferred choice here, I do find the mention of the F-15 as an interesting idea.  Would have been especially interesting to see F-15s in Ilmavoimat service in the '80s...
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 08:13:34 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline Weaver

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2016, 09:08:04 AM »
Also interesting that the RFI hasn't been sent to Russia or China...
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Offline perttime

  • The man has produced a Finnish Napier Heston Fighter...need we say more?
Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2016, 03:38:22 PM »
Purchasing a mix of manned fighters and UCAVs was recently mentioned as a possibility, in the news.
I suspect the F-15 may be on the large size for operating from existing facilities. Maybe expensive to operate too?

Offline Kelmola

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2016, 12:42:30 AM »
The only thing working against F-35 is that due to the size of our country, an interceptor would preferably have to be a bit faster, hence Eurofighter or even Silent Eagle could well stay in the running.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2016, 06:02:06 AM »
The only thing working against F-35 is that due to the size of our country, an interceptor would preferably have to be a bit faster, hence Eurofighter or even Silent Eagle could well stay in the running.

One could go for some dispersible F-35Bs if this sort of thing is a concern...I seriously doubt it will be an issue though.  If you compare performance of existing F/A-18Cs and F-35s you will see theta speed is hardly different.
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2016, 03:32:05 AM »
New twist...maybe:

Quote
Finland Mulls Investment In Drones Alongside New Fighter Jets
(Source: YLE Finnish Broadcasting Corp.; published April 22, 2016)

Finnish Defence Forces are considering adding drones to its shopping list for new fighter jets. Officials are said to have put out feelers to acquire hardware that could replace Hornets altogether in the next decade. Defence contractors have also been asked to table proposals to boost the aerial power of multi-purpose fighter jets with drones.

Finnish military air power may soon be supplemented by unmanned aicraft - or drones - in the next few decades. Defence Forces Logistics Command has put out a call to fighter jet contractors, asking for proposals to provide new craft to replace the existing fleet of Hornet jets, which are due to be de-commissioned by the start of 2025. That information is to be used to flesh out upcoming competitive tenders.

Contractors are also being asked to provide proposals that would complement the aerial power of multipurpose fighter jets with drones. Such proposals should be credible options in the post-2030 security environment.

The Defence Forces have previously used drones such as Swiss-built Ranger surveillance drones for non-combat missions. They have also acquired Israeli Orbiter surveillance drones. However, drone manufacturers are now being invited to table proposals for armed drones to complement the proposed fighter jet order.
Finland’s priciest acquisition

Last summer Yle ascertained the cost of the fighter jet procurement with the help of officials in the United States and Norway. Norway put the total life cycle cost of new fighter jet acquisitions at an estimated 29 billion euros, with the actual purchase price coming in at less than eight billion euros.

In comparison, Finland’s total annual defence spending is less than three billion euros.

The request for information that Finland sent to defence contractors enquired about more than just the cost of ownership. Suppliers were also asked to provide precise information about weaponry, training equipment, guidance systems as well as service and maintenance programmes.

Potential suppliers have also been asked to itemise usage and maintenance costs as well as to outline how these expenses have been calculated – an important factor, since different countries and manufacturers have different approaches to estimating the cost of owning and operating fighter jets.

The queries were sent to defence administrations in the UK, France, Sweden and the United States, with a request to direct them to fighter jet contractors.

Local Defence Force officials expect responses to their questions by the end of the year. Defence officials have said that they will release price estimates for the combat aircraft acquisition next spring.

Formal tender requests are to be released in 2018 and a final procurement decision is expected in 2021.

-ends-
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Offline Kelmola

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2016, 05:00:14 AM »
That in turn would put the F-35 ahead of the competition, since it's probably the only one that has been designed from the start to work as a drone controller.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2022, 03:26:22 AM »
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Offline Geoff

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2022, 06:28:40 AM »
I did make one of those

Offline ScranJ51

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #35 on: July 14, 2022, 03:15:31 PM »
I did Mig-29's a while ago:

Finn 29 Pair-1 by David Freeman, on Flickr

Finn 29 Pair-2 by David Freeman, on Flickr

29-319-1 by David Freeman, on Flickr

29-319-2 by David Freeman, on Flickr
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Offline perttime

  • The man has produced a Finnish Napier Heston Fighter...need we say more?
Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #36 on: July 14, 2022, 07:32:38 PM »
MiG-29 was initially considered for replacing MiG-21 Bis in late '80s. When Requsts for Quotations were sent in early 1990, none went for the MiG.

The models look good ... except the serial numbers do not fit the established Finnish pattern.

Offline Geoff

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #37 on: July 14, 2022, 10:07:26 PM »
An old one of mine
« Last Edit: July 14, 2022, 10:09:55 PM by Geoff »

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #38 on: July 15, 2022, 12:57:12 AM »
I like the MiG-29
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Offline M.A.D

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Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #39 on: July 15, 2022, 08:18:13 PM »
An old one of mine

I always thought the Finn's would have appriciated the MiG-27 or Su-25 for their solidness, their rough-field capability and hard hitting attributes.


MAD

Offline ScranJ51

  • Fast Jet, Fast Prop, Fast Racing Cars - thats me!!
Re: 'might have beens' ... Finland
« Reply #40 on: July 16, 2022, 05:57:00 AM »
The models look good ... except the serial numbers do not fit the established Finnish pattern.

That was noted at the time.

My explanation was that the aircraft came second-hand on short notice, so used modified identity markings when first introduced.


 :smiley: ;) :D
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