Beyond The Sprues
Modelling => Ideas & Inspiration => Land => Topic started by: dy031101 on May 17, 2014, 05:45:42 AM
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M3 Grants/Lees used German 75mm shells (after they were remanufactured to British standards) in the Western Desert in 1942-3.
Curiosity...... did they have a chance to see how far they could go with Ex-German HEAT projectiles?
I don't think there were any HEAT rounds in the Western Desert. Hunnicutt who mentions the remanufacture of German shells only refers to HE rounds. The shells had to have their driving bands machined to allow them to fit the US 75mm barrel and they had to be put on US 75mm shell cases (the powder from the German shells was reused). Apparently they had to make the lathes run in reverse because running them clockwise had an unfortunate effect on the fuses - arming them! :o
I recently heard of an experiment in UK involving combining the HEAT projectile from the 75mm pack howitzer with the case used by short-75mm tank gun ammo and test firing it out of a short-75mm gun Sherman.
That, coupled with the above-quoted discussion, gave rise to this question of my curiosity: what kind of equipment would be needed to remanufacture tank gun ammos in this manner? Could the said equipment be packed up, moved, and then deployed in any manner similar to, say, a field repair shop?
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I would suggest this sort of thing would need to be undertaken by a specialist ordnance depot at a base workshops. While the equipment could be made fairly mobile, the conditions under which it would need to be operated (clean workshops, non-spark flooring, bunds, etc.) couldn't. It is actually a highly specialised job and one that shouldn't be undertaken lightly except by those qualified to do so. Ammunition handling, storage and maintenance is a specialist role in most Armies and the Ammo Techs have to undergo specialised training for it, particularly with concerns towards safety (and safety can't be drummed in enough, you don't get second chances with ammunition).
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Ammunition handling, storage and maintenance is a specialist role in most Armies and the Ammo Techs have to undergo specialised training for it, particularly with concerns towards safety (and safety can't be drummed in enough, you don't get second chances with ammunition).
Now days, definitely. Back in WWII…maybe.
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BTW, there have been some interesting things happening in this field recently - this story just scratches the surface (http://singularityhub.com/2013/02/28/3d-printing-on-the-frontlines-army-deploying-2-8m-mobile-fabrication-labs/).
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Ammunition handling, storage and maintenance is a specialist role in most Armies and the Ammo Techs have to undergo specialised training for it, particularly with concerns towards safety (and safety can't be drummed in enough, you don't get second chances with ammunition).
Now days, definitely. Back in WWII…maybe.
Even in WWII. I remember being forced to view several WWII era British training films about ammunition safety. Obviously some of the aspects of handling have changed appreciably and some of the worries (hob nailed boots and sparks) aren't as significant but a lot of the basics were laid down even before WWII. I also learnt there were quite a few ideas which were never well document and which were based on hard experience. Ammunition explosions were a real danger back then and surprisingly common but a lot of work went into trying to prevent them. The problem is that people become careless over time and that as why we always rotated diggers in and out of different dangerous roles (ie Ammo Tech, POL Operator, etc) fairly frequently - not only to give them experience in them but to make sure they didn't become complacent. I remember one exercise where a box of all ball ammunition was found in a pallet of blank. It had been packed at the main ammo depot, it caused an Australia-wide stoppage on all blank ammunition issues, all because someone had become complacent. The culprit was never traced but it could have had tragic consequences if one of our diggers had not noticed it when he was issuing to an infantry unit.
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Russian Vityaz DT10/DT-25/DT-30 tracked articulated carrier - many videos of it & other types on youtube.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/Vityaz_CTV.jpg/800px-Vityaz_CTV.jpg)
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M548:
(http://olive-drab.com/images/id_m548_1id_1eng_700.jpg)
M113as4 logistical carrier:
(http://www.defencemodels.com.au/gallery/DSC04466_640.jpg)
Stormer logistical carrier:
(http://army-uk.com/stock/fotobig/857_IMG_4455.JPG)
Turkish ACV-S Logistical carrier:
(http://www.combatreform.org/FNSStrackedlogisticscarrier01cropped.jpg)
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WW1 German Logistics ...
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M993 Load Carrier, derived from the M2 Bradley, hear using the UK DROPS system:
(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f329/BARV/M993%20Build/cut_edited.jpg)
Alvis Stalwart, derived from the Saladin/Saracen chassis:
(http://www.rememuseum.org.uk/UserImages/SubCollections/093516.jpg)
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After reading the book "Thunder Run" about the armored units blasting their way into downtown Baghdad in 2003, I was thinking of building a Bradley style supply vehicle. It seems the armored units had little trouble driving into Baghdad but the unarmored supply vehicles had a really tough time following them. The armored units almost had to pull out due to a shortage of fuel and ammunition. I was thinking of a Bradley with the turret removed and a raised cargo compartment replacing the troop area. Keep the rear ramp and add large overhead hatches for loading and unloading (or is that offloading?) That way the fuel and/or ammunition would be under armor protection when approaching the lead armored vehicles. Perhaps a crane mounted on the roof would be a good touch. Like I need more projects! :o :icon_meditation:
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I like your thinking. :)
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After reading the book "Thunder Run" about the armored units blasting their way into downtown Baghdad in 2003, I was thinking of building a Bradley style supply vehicle. It seems the armored units had little trouble driving into Baghdad but the unarmored supply vehicles had a really tough time following them. The armored units almost had to pull out due to a shortage of fuel and ammunition. I was thinking of a Bradley with the turret removed and a raised cargo compartment replacing the troop area. Keep the rear ramp and add large overhead hatches for loading and unloading (or is that offloading?) That way the fuel and/or ammunition would be under armor protection when approaching the lead armored vehicles. Perhaps a crane mounted on the roof would be a good touch. Like I need more projects! :o :icon_meditation:
Out running the logistics "tail" is a time honoured tradition amongst armoured units. With the M1 Abrahms though, it doesn't take long to run out of fuel, one of the inherent disadvantages of the use of a gas turbine engine. British units in both invasions of Iraq often remarked how their Challengers would motor past US units engaged in refuelling (and it's one reason why the British and French were assigned in '91 the much longer left flank outflanking movement, the logistics load if US units had undertaken it would have had a detrimental effect on the conduct of the campaign, sucking most of the logistics vehicles away from the rest of the force).
The M993 is based on the Bradley and is armoured (not to the same extent, admittedly). A M2 based load carrier couldn't carry very much and would be comparatively expensive. It'd make an interesting build though. Perhaps add a HIAB crane and a roller floor so that you can slide pallets in and out? Replace the turret with a simple cupola with a .50 cal, a'la M113 (with shield, of course). Move the cupola as far forward as possible. Alternatively, as with the M113as4 load carrier, cut the hull away completely and just leave a vestigial crew compartment and a flat bed load carrying area?
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Mostly I was thinking of a way to use a Bradley missing its turret that was used for my Patton/Bradley build. The back story could be what if the "Thunder run" situation had dragged on or become a more common tactic in other cities then the armored vehicle resupply vehicle would have become a necessity. The idea being that some Bradleys had their turrets removed to make room and increase payload. A TC hatch would be a good idea.
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Logistics carrier version of the GCV / Nammer........looks like the Stormer but much bigger
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Just to be cheeky! ;)
High Mobility Battlefield Logistics Transport (HMBLT)
(http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq311/GPlachy/HMBLT/DSCN0036.jpg)
(aka Honey Mustard Bacon Lettuce & Tomato)
;D
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Looking good…and tasty! ;)
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lookin' great ! Wombat :)
For Britain from Italy .... Pavesi tractors & articulated carriers ...
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The second photo proves the US Army's Gamma Goat wasn't such a new idea!
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I'm putting this here in lieu of any other obvious area: The Pearson Engineering Route Opening and Clearing Capability (PEROCC) vehicle - I reckon it looks cool:
https://youtu.be/B3cAbDauvqo (https://youtu.be/B3cAbDauvqo)
(http://www.pearson-eng.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/S1100021-Copy-1024x473.jpg)
(http://www.pearson-eng.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/S1100060-1024x473.jpg)
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Unless they are two different vehicles, one of the photos is reversed.
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Err, not on my end. The pics are fine. Everything sits right where it's supposed to.
Reversed or not: I want one in 1/35! :icon_beer:
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that may just be the coolest eroc I've ever seen!
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Unless they are two different vehicles, one of the photos is reversed.
One photo shows the front, the other the rear - its quite simple!
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that may just be the coolest eroc I've ever seen!
I am with you there.
I want one in 1/35! :icon_beer:
Me too!
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Just noted that Pearson Engineering will be at next year's Singapore Air Show...as will I. Will have to go have a closer look at this.
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Anyone game to do a scratch build?
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The three-ton Mark IV Salvage Tank crane used an electromagnet clutch to remove anti-tank mines or shells, aiming to protect sappers.
(https://media.licdn.com/dms/image/D4E22AQHNuZJc4btrew/feedshare-shrink_800/0/1693887113511?e=1697068800&v=beta&t=CIgEfxb71Fs2HseYu66QzVZFcENXmrlS6MWXuibW6RM)
Ah, for simpler times...
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The whole concept reminds me of a project I did many, many moons ago…
Armoured Logistics Vehicle
The model depicts an Armoured Logistics Vehicle (ALV) of the 301st Heavy Logistic Support Battalion, 90th Guards Tank Division in 20th Guards Army at Bernau in the Group of Soviet Forces in Germany some time in the mid-1980s.
The ALV is a heavily modified T-62 hull with the new crew compartment and turret built over the rear engine deck so that the original T-62 is effectively back to front. This adaption allows for a large unrestricted cargo compartment free of engine and transmission. This arrangement does however, require large side mounted air intakes for the somewhat enclosed engine.
The cargo area is large enough to carry numerous and varied loads and can be set up as an APC or a very effective field ambulance. The rear cargo compartment is accessed by a large hydraulically powered ramp.
Defence is provided by a BMP-2 turret mounting a very effective 30mm automatic cannon, which has a selectable rate of fire, either slow at 200 to 300 rounds per minute or fast at 550 rounds per minute. The stabilisation provides reasonable accuracy up to a speed of about 35 kilometres per hour. The AP-T ammunition can penetrate 15 millimetres of armour at sixty degrees at 1,500 meters, while a new APDS-T tungsten round can penetrate 25 millimetres at the same distance. A typical ammunition load is 160 rounds of AP ammunition and 340 rounds of HE ammunition. The commander's 1PZ-3 sight is specifically designed for anti-aircraft operation and combined with the high maximum elevation of 74 degrees; it allows the 30 mm cannon to be used effectively against helicopters and slow flying aircraft.
The ALV is fully NBC protected.
The model is built on the base of a Tamiya T-62 with the turret from a (?) BMP-2 and a whole lot of scratch build.
(http://i.imgur.com/w3A3B.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/rWlHX.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/8M2Xq.jpg)
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Switching the drive direction of a T-xx tank to create a large cargo/crew area seems to be fairly common in the real world.
Your build looks great! Almost like a Russian version of a USMC tuna boat.
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Nice one on the ALV.
Carting stuff in a protected mode appears to be catching on.
The idea of the electromagnet Mine clearing is quite interesting as well, but yes, simpler times
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Just a refresher on the M1137A3 High Mobility Battlefield Logistics Transport (HMBLT)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/M-1137-HMBLT/i-XhgmPpR/0/7e3d4bde/X3/DSCN4630-X3.jpg)
... There is an earlier photo on page 1 from 2014 of the WIP HMBLT, this is the finished version.
Currently she needs to go into the workshop for some R-&-R (Repair & Refurbishment).
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:smiley:
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Polish WZT-3 (T-72 based ) ARV https://www.militarytoday.com/engineering/wzt3.htm (https://www.militarytoday.com/engineering/wzt3.htm)
(https://www.armyrecognition.com/europe/Pologne/vehicules_lourds/WZT-3/WZT-3_Decoupe_Poland_01.jpg)