Beyond The Sprues
Modelling => Ideas & Inspiration => Aero-space => Topic started by: Caveman on February 12, 2013, 09:37:59 PM
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Ok, bit of a random question/scenario.
What if: When the RN was looking for an ASW helo that ultimately became Merlin, they decided that merlin was too large an aircraft. What might they have chosen instead? Additionally, what is the smallest helicopter that can carry out the full ASW mission? I.e. locate, identify and attack in a single aircraft.
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A Lynx/Wildcat in answer to both your questions. Historically the Westland Wasp was the smallest ASW helicopter so perhaps something more modern along those lines?
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Well instead of the Merlin there was always the NFH-90 or the SH-60
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Whatever the latest Helix is, perhaps with a mix of British and Russian equipment?
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Did a wasp ever carry any sonar equipment? Again with lynx I don't think it has any onboard capability to locate a submarine, it is merely acting as a torpedo delivery system.
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^ No man is an island unto himself and no self-respecting RN ASW chopper pilot is going hunting without a trusty Type 22/23 Frigate to back him/her up.
Well instead of the Merlin there was always the NFH-90...
Why in hell would you wish one of those on us? ;)
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Smaller aircraft have performed the role in the past, but the smallest current helicopter that can perform quality is a bit debatable. Depending on the dimension you're measuring, it's either the Westland Lynx/Wilcat or the Eurocopter Dauphin/Panther (and it's Chinese clone). The only other ASW helicopter in that class is really the Kaman Seasprite, though it's getting a bit long in the tooth.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/AS_565_France_marine.jpg)
So, that pretty much closes the book on the matter, doesn't it? Well, not exactly. You are correct that the NH90, Merlin, and the aircraft they replaced, the Sea King are all much bigger, much heavier helicopters. They are also much more capable. The most popular ASW helicopter in the world, however, is the SH-60/MH-60R. I would normally support its inclusion in the "mid-size" market right up there with the NFH, but it actually folds up quite nice into a really small package. It still weighs as much as the other "mid-size" helos, but it does have a lower physical footprint. That's why you occasionally see it competing in the same market space as the AW159 Wildcat where the NH90 could not (to say nothing of the Merlin!). It offers "mid-size" ASW helicopter performance for the size of a "compact" helicopter. You just might need to reinforce the hangar deck a bit and give yourself a bit more room in parts of the hangar.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-e5L43Tv8nSk/TVXNo7YtbHI/AAAAAAAABZQ/XR0l0vTvxHg/s1600/MH-60R%2B166524%2BHSM-41.jpg)
The US and Australia replaced their Seasprites with the MH-60R and the Danes just replaced their Lynxes with the MH-60R. The US saw this market space shrinking and left the Seasprite without a direct "light helicopter" replacement. I think the Wildcat, much as I LOVE it, never should have been developed either (and for the same reason). The ASW capabilities of the Panther aren't nearly as robust, so it's competing in a slightly different market space. More importantly, it's just a modification of a successful civilian helicopter, not a dedicated military airframe like the Lynx and Seasprite. It doesn't need to stand on its naval helicopter merits alone to survive.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a1/US_Navy_080730-N-5384B-013_he_Royal_New_Zealand_Navy_SH-2G_Sea_Sprite_prepares_to_land_aboard_the_Nimitz-class_aircraft_carrier_USS_Abraham_Lincoln_%28CVN_72%29.jpg/1024px-US_Navy_080730-N-5384B-013_he_Royal_New_Zealand_Navy_SH-2G_Sea_Sprite_prepares_to_land_aboard_the_Nimitz-class_aircraft_carrier_USS_Abraham_Lincoln_%28CVN_72%29.jpg)
I really do think the days of the dedicated light ASW helicopter are gone, likely to be replaced by unmanned options or larger, more capable helicopters like the Seahawk and NH90. So, that closes the book on the matter, doesn't it? Well, not really. In length and width, the Russian Kamov Ka-27 offers a robust, alternative ASW capability comparable or superior to that of the "light" helicopters. It's just the ridiculous height that holds it back. You either design your ship to take Kamovs...or you don't. That's what the Russians ran into with the Mistrals.
(http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/9016/02173087.jpg)
Remember, as with everything in life, there's no such thing as a free lunch. There's always a cost, always a tradeoff.
Cheers,
Logan
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Smallest platform? Well, what if the DASH program had been pusued with the same....stubborness as
the Osprey?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrodyne_QH-50_DASH (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrodyne_QH-50_DASH)
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Did a wasp ever carry any sonar equipment? Again with lynx I don't think it has any onboard capability to locate a submarine, it is merely acting as a torpedo delivery system.
RN Lynxs only had MAD, smoke flares and Stingrays to start with (not sure about the later versions) so yes, they could only localise and prosecute a contact worked up by another unit. However, German, French and some export Lynxs had dipping sonar however, so they could, in theory, locate a contact from scratch.
My understanding of the USN's LAMPS helos (Seasprite and early SH-60, not sure about the MH-60) is that they act as permanently linked sensor/weapon extensions of their parent ship, with no on-board processing capability of their own: lose the link to the destroyer and effectively, they have no sonar, whereas a Sea King or Merlin can prosecute a contact entirely on it's own.
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You either design your ship to take Kamovs...or you don't. That's what the Russians ran into with the Mistrals.
Well, if you have to go to that much effort to fit it on your deck then you might as well go the whole hog and go Merlin. Good sensors, good dash-speed, good loiter time and 3 (count them, three) engines so losing one is almost a non-issue. Weight and volume margins for future developments too.
Bloody quiet too. I was on the deck of Lusty once and had one sneak up behind me! When your jaw hits the flight deck, it hurts!
I have a brochure from Yarrow regarding the T22B3 back when they were brand new (I'm gettin' old dammit). Under weapons, the first thing it mentions is the ability to operate either a Sea King or an EH-101. Seriously, why eek it out with just a dipping sonar when you can have a bow sonar and towed array just over the radio? The frigate makes one hell of a wingman.
The illustration of the EH-101 is interesting as it appears to be quite early and isn't very representative of a Merlin. I can scan it if there is any interest?
....DASH program...
Or for something homegrown, how about something along the lines of the Westland Wideye?
http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/west_wisp.php (http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/west_wisp.php)
http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/west_wideeye.php (http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/west_wideeye.php)
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You either design your ship to take Kamovs...or you don't. That's what the Russians ran into with the Mistrals.
Well, if you have to go to that much effort to fit it on your deck then you might as well go the whole hog and go Merlin. Good sensors, good dash-speed, good loiter time and 3 (count them, three) engines so losing one is almost a non-issue. Weight and volume margins for future developments too.
Oh, I agree, never really been a fan of the Ka-27. I was just saying that you have to think about vertical hangar space when you're considering them.
Cheers,
Logan
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I was just saying that you have to think about vertical hangar space when you're considering them.
Your photo illustrates the problem well. Can you imagine having to get up there and perform maintenance on them in a stormy sea state? No thanks.
The Sea King HAS variants were capable of autonomous prosecution but actually aren't much smaller than a Merlin. Realistically, if you don't want Merlin then the only options are NFH-90 or the SH-60F (or presumably the WS-70 equivalent).
If you want a wildcard, how about a Cougar/Caracal? Or in the SH-2 class, either the AB-212 ASW or the PZL W-3 Sokół?
Edit: Can't vouch for the site but while googling, I came across an interesting topic on smaller ASW helos here:
http://www.timawa.net/forum/index.php?topic=28024.0 (http://www.timawa.net/forum/index.php?topic=28024.0)
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I would be supprised if the Kamov is substantially taller than the merlin...
just googled kamovs height: 5.5m
merlin folded is close as damnit 5.25m...
It is only really the upper rotor of the Kamov that would be a pain to reach. I imagine that the lower blades are probably more like 4 meters. And the engines perhaps 3-3.5 not too bad really and no tail transmission to have to inspect either.
this picture (its massive so ill link to it) illustrates the scale of a merlin rather nicely...
http://img.planespotters.net/photo/232000/original/ZH863-Royal-Navy-AgustaWestland-EH101AW101-Merlin_PlanespottersNet_232086.jpg (http://img.planespotters.net/photo/232000/original/ZH863-Royal-Navy-AgustaWestland-EH101AW101-Merlin_PlanespottersNet_232086.jpg)
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I would be supprised if the Kamov is substantially taller than the merlin...
I was speaking for myself, being a scaredy-cat 1st class. ;)
Nice pic. I think this one goes a fair way to showing scale too:
http://www.barco.com/~//~/media/Images/References/2006/Royal%20Navy%20Merlin%20MK%201%20helicopters/DEF%20EH101%20picture%207.jpg?mh=900&mw=900 (http://www.barco.com/~//~/media/Images/References/2006/Royal%20Navy%20Merlin%20MK%201%20helicopters/DEF%20EH101%20picture%207.jpg?mh=900&mw=900)
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Smallest platform? Well, what if the DASH program had been pusued with the same....stubborness as
the Osprey?
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrodyne_QH-50_DASH[/url] ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrodyne_QH-50_DASH[/url])
Well, it handles the weapon carriage aspects just fine, but it doesn't do anything to extend sensor reach for prosecuting submerged targets. I suspect that's part of what lead to the termination of the program. Of course, as Wikipedia states, the escalating cost of the Southeast Asian Conflict definitely played a role.
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I have a brochure from Yarrow regarding the T22B3 back when they were brand new (I'm gettin' old dammit). Under weapons, the first thing it mentions is the ability to operate either a Sea King or an EH-101. Seriously, why eek it out with just a dipping sonar when you can have a bow sonar and towed array just over the radio? The frigate makes one hell of a wingman.
Well the frigate and the helo are really complementary, rather than competing systems. The helo will NEVER have a sensor with anything like the range of the towed array, but then it's a lot quicker at getting to a towed-array contact than any frigate. However there are circumstances in which a towed-array is useless: areas with lots of little islands, for example. The best towed array and bow sonar in the world are useless if there's several million tons of rock between the frigate and the target, but the helo can flit around and check behind all those islands...
I'm not the expert, but I'm told there are several useful sonar tricks that can be done if you have two co-operating but separate platforms, either two helos or a helo and a frigate...
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but I'm told there are several useful sonar tricks that can be done if you have two co-operating but separate platforms, either two helos or a helo and a frigate...
Well if nothing else, a bit of good ol' triangulation is always useful.
I completely agree about the two being complimentary. I'd take it further and say one is completely useless (in ASW) without the other.
Regarding the towed-array, I confess I was probably fixating on the RN's G-I-UK Gap role and wasn't really thinking of littorals.
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I wouldn't say one is useless without the other. An airborne system is always going to struggle compared to a ship borne one due to size, weight and power constraints. However, if a helicopter can carry all the kit required to conduct asw ops: detect and destroy then it allows asw capability to be grafted onto any vessel with enough deck room to land on. For instance, a lot of rfas have very generous hangarage and they are being used more and more for front line ops. I'm not saying that you would necessarily want to go sub hunting with an rfa but you could if pushed.
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^ Very true, now but if you are cancelling Merlin, then you are doing it in the 80's or latest during the 'peace dividend' in the early 90's and that is a very different RN.
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I am sure I have seen the MD 500 used for ASW work too, I have seen at least one real picture of one just can't remember where I saw it and who operated it. Also didn't the Swedes use a militarized jet ranger for anti sub work. I remember seeing them dropping mines into the sea with them when they found those "tracks" on the sea bed a few years back.
Chris
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I am sure I have seen the MD 500 used for ASW work too, I have seen at least one real picture of one just can't remember where I saw it and who operated it. Also didn't the Swedes use a militarized jet ranger for anti sub work. I remember seeing them dropping mines into the sea with them when they found those "tracks" on the sea bed a few years back.
Chris
There was a 1:48th scale Hughes 500 with an ASW load from Hasegawa (I had that kit) and I think it was Fujimi or Academy that also offered the same version for the Taiwanese (Republican China) Navy. In 1:72nd scale I have no knowledge of any Hughes 500 ASW version from any company.
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(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b229/DDonSS3/Archive%20Photos/md500asw.jpg)
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Another that almost happened was the Dhruv ASW. It just didn't have the power for the mission. ASW equipment isn't light.
(http://www.militaryimages.net/photopost/data/524/Indian_Navy_-_HAL_Dhruv.jpg)
See, that's why going smaller is the problem. You need to be getting a BIGGER helicopter. The Merlin is much too small. You shouldn't be designing a helicopter small enough to fit on a small ship. When your ship is that small, just use a bigger helicopter to CARRY the ship as needed. The frigate IS the dipping sonar. You get to have your cake and eat it, too.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9b/CH-53_minesweeping.jpg/680px-CH-53_minesweeping.jpg)
Cheers,
Logan
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Supersize Sikorsky Skycrane then?!!
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Supersize Sikorsky Skycrane then?!!
Super Skycrane based on Super Stallion? BTW, Sikorsky sold the TC and all data for the Skycrane to Erickson.
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Off the top of my head, I think the Mexican and possibly Spanish navies used the MD500 ASW. It's certainly useful for a small ship (and a damn sight better than nothing), but it's really close to an old-style "manned-DASH" type machine. The mother ship would work up the initial contact and the MD500 would then go and drop a torpedo on it. The difference between the MD and say, a Wasp, is that the MD could localise the contact a bit more precisely using it's MAD bird, thus making it less likely that the torpedo would be wasted by being dropped outside limits. The MD also has a radar, but that's really more relevent for non-ASW missions.
Alouette IIIs have been used on board ships, and IIRC, there are some FACs (Bahraini?) that can carry a Bo-105. I don't know how much ASW gear either of them carries though.
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Just had a Merlin HM.1 fly over my house (twice in fact) for the 1st time. Had Chinooks, Lynxes and a Merlin HC.3 but never a HM.1 'til now. Spooky!
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You are being watched...
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Just had a Merlin HM.1 fly over my house (twice in fact) for the 1st time. Had Chinooks, Lynxes and a Merlin HC.3 but never a HM.1 'til now. Spooky!
you live either in the north east or south west?
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Just had a Merlin HM.1 fly over my house (twice in fact) for the 1st time. Had Chinooks, Lynxes and a Merlin HC.3 but never a HM.1 'til now. Spooky!
These internet search cookies are getting out of hand! ;D
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Just had a Merlin HM.1 fly over my house (twice in fact) for the 1st time. Had Chinooks, Lynxes and a Merlin HC.3 but never a HM.1 'til now. Spooky!
you live either in the north east or south west?
Southwest.
You are being watched...
:icon_ninja:
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Don't be concerned...the helicopter is just part of your friendly BTS Moderation team doing their job...
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You should only be concerned when the helos get closer, drop into a hover, the door slides open, a fast rope appears, and..........
Radish ropes down! ;D
You've been warned >:(
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Just had a Merlin HM.1 fly over my house (twice in fact) for the 1st time. Had Chinooks, Lynxes and a Merlin HC.3 but never a HM.1 'til now. Spooky!
you live either in the north east or south west?
Southwest.
You are being watched...
:icon_ninja:
Well then, there is a nest of the buggers in your neighbourhood!
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I think the Wildcat, much as I LOVE it, never should have been developed either (and for the same reason)...... More importantly, it's just a modification of a successful civilian helicopter, not a dedicated military airframe like the Lynx and Seasprite. It doesn't need to stand on its naval helicopter merits alone to survive.
Doesn't the Wildcat also have an army programme to piggy-back on? Granted it's still a dedicated military airframe.
When I learned that South Koreans are flying their Lynx off, of all ships in the world, Gearing class...... wonderful. Almost made me wish there was no Sino-Soviet split......
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Realistically, if you don't want Merlin then the only options are NFH-90 or the SH-60F (or presumably the WS-70 equivalent).
Is the WS-70 still powered with T700, or is there a non-American engine option available?
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I believe it is still the T700. One could probably adapt it to have the Rolls-Royce Turbomeca RTM322 though.
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I believe it is still the T700. One could probably adapt it to have the Rolls-Royce Turbomeca RTM322 though.
I see......
I'm unfamiliar with the folded-up size of the NH-90; I am under the impression that one NFH might fit into a hangar repurposed from housing two Seahawks. Am I having a safe assumption, or am I better off running with the idea of RTM322-powered WS-70 (whether because NH-90 is still too big, two choppers are always better than just one, or any other reason)?
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This will probably help in your assessment:
(http://ardhan.pagesperso-orange.fr/s_ouvrages/NH90-Dossier%20Ardhan%20n%B0%201fichiers/image014.jpg)
(http://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints-depot/helicopters/sikorsky/sh-60b.gif)
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Top: Bell 608
Mid: Bo-105
Bottom: LAMPS II candidates: Lynx, UH-1N, and SH-2
The Bell 608 and the Americanized Bo-105 are meant for, IIRC, the LASH programme, which seemed to be essentially a manned successor to the QH-50 DASH.
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Whatever the latest Helix is, perhaps with a mix of British and Russian equipment?
If anyone was going to do this, I thought it would have been the Indian Navy!!
M.A.D
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Smallest platform? Well, what if the DASH program had been pusued with the same....stubborness as
the Osprey?
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrodyne_QH-50_DASH[/url] ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrodyne_QH-50_DASH[/url])
One would think with the miniaturisation of electronics, small & light turboshaft engines, communication equipment, GPS.......that modern DASH concept would have to both work and be reliable!
M.A.D
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theres a really nice 72 scale QH.50 Dash available on Shapeways 8)
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I have no idea if this one has flown or is just a mockup. I've seen Fennecs flying with a radar, but never torpedoes.