Author Topic: Gripens for Ukraine?  (Read 5496 times)

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Gripens for Ukraine?
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2023, 02:03:54 AM »
You can just sense that Stephen is already planning a AH-64 in Ukrainian scheme...

Not quite ...  :D

-- https://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=351.msg206502#msg206502

Well get to it!!! >:(
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Offline Kelmola

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Re: Gripens for Ukraine?
« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2023, 07:09:09 AM »
Might post this here as well - Finnish PM on a visit to Ukraine started thinking aloud, whether the Hornets being retired from FAF starting in 2025 could be sent to Ukraine instead of being salvaged for parts, and that this idea should be discussed further, but any such action would have to be coordinated between possible participants. The Defence Minister and armed forces had not been consulted and quickly rebuked this, stating that any fighter being retired according to the plan would be at the very end of its operational life, and that retiring them earlier so that Ukraine could use them in the war would leave a gap in defences (unless replaced somehow). But at least we're not the only ones coming up with such scenarios anymore...

EDIT: of course, on day 377 of the three-day special operation, who knows how much further the war will drag on, so maybe it's still being fought in 2025. :(
« Last Edit: March 11, 2023, 07:11:46 AM by Kelmola »

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Re: Gripens for Ukraine?
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2023, 03:08:39 AM »
While everyone talks of Fighting Falcons, Gripens and Mirages, no one have talk about the Embraer Super Tucano  ;D

From Wikipedia of said aircraft:

"On December 4, 2022, the Brazilian media reported a Ukrainian interest in the Super Tucano, to equip the Air Force in the Russo-Ukrainian War efforts. The sale was blocked by the Bolsonaro administration.[152] A diplomatic effort by the United States to persuade the president-elect of Brazil, Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, to unblock the deal has been reported.[152] "

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Gripens for Ukraine?
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2023, 06:47:48 AM »
or they could buy AT-6s from Textron Aviation or Scorpions.

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Re: Gripens for Ukraine?
« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2023, 11:20:30 PM »
New idea: Zelensky asked for the British PM for aircrafts - what if, somehow, the Panavia Tornados are given... (the RAF had retire them in 2019)

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Gripens for Ukraine?
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2023, 12:46:38 AM »
New idea: Zelensky asked for the British PM for aircrafts - what if, somehow, the Panavia Tornados are given... (the RAF had retire them in 2019)

Any idea what state they are in?  I have also seen rumours re Ukraine seeking some German ones.
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Re: Gripens for Ukraine?
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2023, 01:45:03 AM »
New idea: Zelensky asked for the British PM for aircrafts - what if, somehow, the Panavia Tornados are given... (the RAF had retire them in 2019)

Any idea what state they are in?  I have also seen rumours re Ukraine seeking some German ones.

Unknow, it just an idea  8)

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Offline kim margosein

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Re: Gripens for Ukraine?
« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2023, 11:41:03 AM »
I don't know that much about jets, but reading articles about fighter jets theyalways seem to need dozens of maintenance hours per flight hour.  This means a lot of parts to replace, I assume.  Are these parts still around in enough quantity?  It means a lot of people have to be trained,  From what I understand they will have to be untrained first.  I read an article somewhere, I forgot where, about former WARPAC pilots going to NATO jets.  Apparently it requires a completely different mindset.   Also, Tornados essentially attack aircraft.  If this war has taught ujs one thing its that ammunition gets burned through at incredible level.  Are there enough bombs and rockets and drop tanks to support open ended high intensity peer to peer combat?  What about tires and brakes and god knows what else?  Also are there a lot of electronics and the like that shouldn't fall into Russian hands?   It might be easier, cheaper, and quicker to scrounge MiGs and Sus from former WarPac nations in a swap for mothballed western jets.

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Re: Gripens for Ukraine?
« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2023, 01:27:47 AM »
I don't know that much about jets, but reading articles about fighter jets theyalways seem to need dozens of maintenance hours per flight hour. 

That's pretty much the case with any modern weapons system/platform - hence part of the reason for the delays in getting modern western equipment into service with Ukraine.

This means a lot of parts to replace, I assume.  Are these parts still around in enough quantity? 

again, part of the reason for the delays - one needs to make sure the sustainment support system is in place.  In the case of the theoretical Tornados here they are still in service with Germany, Italy and Saudi arabia so presumably there are still spares etc available.  I am not sure what happened with the RAF stocks when their aircraft were retired but some of that may still be available. 

It means a lot of people have to be trained,  From what I understand they will have to be untrained first. 

Again, something well understood and part of the reason for the delays.  That said, in the case of other platforms (not the theoretical Tornados obviously) there is training underway.

I read an article somewhere, I forgot where, about former WARPAC pilots going to NATO jets.  Apparently it requires a completely different mindset.   Also, Tornados essentially attack aircraft. 

Not as much as one would make out.  Moreover Ukrainian forces have proven themselves quite capable of taking on other Western systems. 

If this war has taught ujs one thing its that ammunition gets burned through at incredible level.  Are there enough bombs and rockets and drop tanks to support open ended high intensity peer to peer combat? 

Indeed this is the case and one that is being addressed already despite the best efforts of some to undermine the efforts.

What about tires and brakes and god knows what else?  Also are there a lot of electronics and the like that shouldn't fall into Russian hands?   

Ditto above comments re sustainment systems..  In the case of the Tornados the fear of falling into Russian hands would be less of a worry.

It might be easier, cheaper, and quicker to scrounge MiGs and Sus from former WarPac nations in a swap for mothballed western jets.

They have done that already but these are getting harder to find.
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Gripens for Ukraine?
« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2023, 04:20:24 AM »
Part of the point here too is that the Storm Shadow missiles were already integrated on the Tornado. As for worries that a Tornado might "fall into Russian hands", I would imagine that the Ukrainians would operate much as the Russians do now - mainly lobbing missiles while above their own territory.

In any case, intel gleaned from the wreckage of an aircraft type originally deployed in 1979 will be fairly marginal. Any truly sensitive avionics would likely have been yanked before the GR.4s were stored anyway.
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Offline kim margosein

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Re: Gripens for Ukraine?
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2023, 11:24:18 PM »
Apophenia and GTX thanks for your replies.  For you Europeans, I should also mention a fun fact about American weapons systems procurement.   The US has 50 states, and 435 congressional districts.   Any major contractor will try to spread out subcontracting work to as many of these entities as possible to assure political support.  You can imagine what this does to any supply chain,

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Re: Gripens for Ukraine?
« Reply #37 on: May 22, 2023, 01:26:48 AM »
Errr...I am not European.  I am also very familiar with American weapons systems procurement.
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Offline kim margosein

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Re: Gripens for Ukraine?
« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2023, 11:20:17 AM »
I was writing to the general audience.  I may have come across as patronizing, which was not my intent.   I just don't expect everyone here to know the details of getting things done in  the States.

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Re: Gripens for Ukraine?
« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2023, 04:34:05 PM »
From wiki "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine_(12_November_2022_%E2%80%93_present)#June_2023" + https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/retired-raaf-fighter-jets-could-be-sent-to-ukraine-20230605-p5de0h

"Australia was considering whether to provide Ukraine with 41 retired F/A-18 Hornets from the Royal Australian Air Force, with discussions ongoing between the Australian and United States governments according to the Australian Financial Review.["



Offline apophenia

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Re: Gripens for Ukraine?
« Reply #40 on: June 08, 2023, 10:35:43 AM »
From wiki "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine_(12_November_2022_%E2%80%93_present)#June_2023" + https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/retired-raaf-fighter-jets-could-be-sent-to-ukraine-20230605-p5de0h

"Australia was considering whether to provide Ukraine with 41 retired F/A-18 Hornets from the Royal Australian Air Force, with discussions ongoing between the Australian and United States governments according to the Australian Financial Review.["

Oh this could be good  :smiley:  Kyiv has made the formal request. Canberra is good to go. So long as the White House or Pentagon don't trip over an imaginary red line, we should be good to go!  :smiley: :smiley:
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Re: Gripens for Ukraine?
« Reply #41 on: June 08, 2023, 06:39:08 PM »
At it seens that a blue/yellow roundel might be applied to Hornets  :D - https://amp.abc.net.au/article/102452394

Wiki Quote: "Ukraine promised the US government that it would not deploy any ex-Australian F/A-18 Hornets over Russian territory. The aforementioned aircraft were currently under contract to be sold to Ravn Aero. However the company was understood to be prepared to send them to Ukraine."

Offline Kelmola

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Re: Gripens for Ukraine?
« Reply #42 on: June 08, 2023, 09:58:52 PM »
At it seens that a blue/yellow roundel might be applied to Hornets  :D - https://amp.abc.net.au/article/102452394

Wiki Quote: "Ukraine promised the US government that it would not deploy any ex-Australian F/A-18 Hornets over Russian territory. The aforementioned aircraft were currently under contract to be sold to Ravn Aero. However the company was understood to be prepared to send them to Ukraine."
Would imagine that Ravn Aero then gets the equivalent amount of airframes from the Boneyard, and this deal was renegotiated since the Aussie Hornets are in flying condition instead of being in "deep storage"? (Also provides "plausible deniability" that it is Australia or Ravn Aero delivering the Hornets, not the US Government...)

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Gripens for Ukraine?
« Reply #43 on: June 09, 2023, 02:50:27 AM »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

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Re: Gripens for Ukraine?
« Reply #44 on: June 09, 2023, 07:46:17 AM »
Regardless, he all can still dream - and this is a "what if website", so...  ;D

Offline apophenia

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Re: Gripens for Ukraine?
« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2023, 09:32:11 AM »
Sorry to rain on some people's expectations ...

Buzz-kill!  ;D
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All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.