Consolidated B-24 Liberator and PB4Y Privateer Ideas and Inspiration

[raafif]

just found this ...
            where's Tophe !!



apparently a real idea from the aircraft industry

[elmayerle]

Damn, I want to see the front view of that one.

[finsrin]

Could this be a B-48?
Is looking good.  All thatz needed is wider hangers, taxie ways, runways.......

[madoc]

Looks like someone got a hold of a copy of "Consolidated Mess."

I can't help but think however that such a configuration, as depicted, would be severely underpowered.  You've essentially got double the weight there with only 3/4 the horsepower to drive it (6 engines vs. 8.)

Still looks pretty funky though.

Madoc

[Alvis 3.1]

Holy schninkies! I thought the author of "Consolidated Mess" was joking when he mentioned the Zwilling version!

Makes doing it now less appealing. Maybe. Or not. Darn. Now I'm uncertain. I hate when that happens.

It definitely needs another engine along the center line. Maybe add a couple pushers into the mix, but the whole thing becomes a nightmare of adding weight to get around a bad weight to horsepower ratio. But then, if it looks cool enough, then who cares?
ARRRG!!!!!!! Uncertainty again!!!!!

Alvis 3.1

[jcf]

Full 'ornamental Design for an Airplane' patent at Google Patents:
http://www.google.com/patents/USD138102?dq=kelly+138,102

[GTX_Admin]

What if the B-24 was used as the basis for turboprop experiments rather then the B-17:

[GTX_Admin]

Something cobbled together:

[raafif]

What if the B-24 was used as the basis for turboprop experiments rather then the B-17:

Errk !!  one for the Ugly File !

Something cobbled together

That's better !  Maybe with Chinese stars flying alongside the Tu-4 TurboTracker ?

[finsrin]

C-87HST (Hight Speed Transport)   and   early land based Navy AWACS.
Good bash concepts.   :)

[GTX_Admin]

A thread for your Consolidated B-24 Liberator and PB4Y Privateer Ideas and Inspiration:

[GTX_Admin]

Subtle one:  How about a USAAF B-24R using the fuselage of the PB4Y-2/P4Y-2 Privateer including the new/extra turrets but with the Turbosupercharged engines of the B-24s.

[GTX_Admin]

Interesting observation on this firefighting PBY4:  The unframed windscreen - makes sense for its role.

https://youtu.be/S20O2ERtxTA?t=1m6s

[elmayerle]

How about a stripped-out and refit PB4Y-2 as a PB-4Y-2V staff transport in appropriate markings?

[kitnut617]

Interesting observation on this firefighting PBY4:  The unframed windscreen - makes sense for its role.

https://youtu.be/S20O2ERtxTA?t=1m6s

Hmm! the link says it's the only one  -----

I wonder what this one is I saw back in 2013 at the Yuma Airshow




D'oh!  it's the same one ---

[The Big Gimper]

The Rockcliffe Ice Wagon:

[The Big Gimper]

ARC: 1/72 XB-41 - Destroyer Escort

[elmayerle]

There's also that one-off that had a B-17G nose from just in front of the cockpit forward grafted onto a B-24 (don't remember the exact model).  It's real, but it'd truly freak out a lot of folks.

[GTX_Admin]

There's also that one-off that had a B-17G nose from just in front of the cockpit forward grafted onto a B-24 (don't remember the exact model).  It's real, but it'd truly freak out a lot of folks.

This one:

[GTX_Admin]

A different deferent sort of Liberator:  the single XB-24Q:

[The Big Gimper]

Is that a RADAR controlled tail turret? Also remote controller turrets?

[Jeffry Fontaine]

From Joe Baugher's page on American Military Aircraft - USAAC/USAAF/USAF Bombers - USAAC/USAAF/USAF Bomber Aircraft-Third Series - Consolidated B-24 Liberator:

The XB-24Q-FO was produced in July of 1946 by converting a B-24L (serial number 44-49916) at the General Electric company in Schenectady, New York to test a radar-controlled remote gun position in the tail that was being developed for the Boeing B-47 Stratojet. After completion of the tests, the XB-24Q was eventually sent to reclamation at Olmstead AAF in Pennsylvania in August of 1948 and was presumably scrapped there.

Sources:

    Famous Bombers of the Second World War, William Green, Doubleday, 1959.

    Liberator: America's Global Bomber, Alwyn T. Lloyd, Pictorial Histories Publishing Co, Inc, 1993.

    General Dynamics Aircraft and Their Predecesssors, John Wegg, Naval Institute Press, 1990.

    E-mail from Terence Geary on fate of XB-24Q.

[Rickshaw]

Taken from this webpage - General Electric Air Research Demonstration, June 22, 1946 - rather an interesting collection of photos of what the USAAF was willing to show to the public, just after the end of the war.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Would not take much effort to add in the remote control turrets from the B-29 with the sighting blisters for the gunners to make a very much improved B-24. 

[GTX_Admin]

It is often forgotten that the Indian Air Force flew Liberators until 1968!

Click on the image below to read more details

[arkon]

I always thought a b-24 would look nice with an amphibious hull.😄

[jcf]

I always thought a b-24 would look nice with an amphibious hull.😄

It would look like a four engine version of its predecessor, the Model 31. 

[elmayerle]

Why does my mind want to see a cross between a XB-24Q and a XB-24N?  You might even be able to move the remote turret forward a bit since you would no longer need to worry about hitting the vertical tails.

[GTX_Admin]

I always thought a b-24 would look nice with an amphibious hull.😄

It would look like a four engine version of its predecessor, the Model 31. 

Speaking of the related model 31, what about a bigger version of this proposed variant:

[finsrin]

I always thought a b-24 would look nice with an amphibious hull.

It would look like a four engine version of its predecessor, the Model 31. 

Good call Jon.  Yes the linage is apparent.
Amphibious hull B-24 had crossed my mind too.

[raafif]

based on hulls from Sunderland & Catalina .....

[Cliffy B]

The B-24 Flying boat (1st drawing) looks VERY believable!!!! 

[raafif]

The B-24 Flying boat (1st drawing) looks VERY believable!!!! 

thanks Cliffy ... but when the Lib's structure is so flimsy & would need much strengthening for a 'boat, why not just license-build the Sunderland

[elmayerle]

The B-24 Flying boat (1st drawing) looks VERY believable!!!! 

thanks Cliffy ... but when the Lib's structure is so flimsy & would need much strengthening for a 'boat, why not just license-build the Sunderland

Beautiful art.  I'm thinking though, that an updated Model 31, incorporating much of the Liberator would have a better chance.  Given Consolidated's involvement with flying boats, I can't see them licensing the Sunderland and arguing strenuously against anyone else so doing.

[kitnut617]

It is often forgotten that the Indian Air Force flew Liberators until 1968!

Click on the image below to read more details

My Dad told me when he was stationed at Digri with 617 Sqn. just after the war , he watched the B-24's the RAF had being flown out to sea where the minimal crew would bail out and then the aircraft would crash into the sea ----

[The Big Gimper]

And we have an Indian B-24 at the Canadian Aviation and Space Museum in Ottawa. 

Got it in exchange for a Lysander. 

[jcf]

The B-24 Flying boat (1st drawing) looks VERY believable!!!! 

thanks Cliffy ... but when the Lib's structure is so flimsy & would need much strengthening for a 'boat, why not just license-build the Sunderland

Beautiful art.  I'm thinking though, that an updated Model 31, incorporating much of the Liberator would have a better chance.  Given Consolidated's involvement with flying boats, I can't see them licensing the Sunderland and arguing strenuously against anyone else so doing.

... or a Coronado with Model 31 - Model 32/Liberator type wing.

[ysi_maniac]

Liner based on B-24

[GTX_Admin]

Or taking a more aggressive stance:

[GTX_Admin]

One I did ages ago - a turboprop powered AEW Liberator derivative:

[GTX_Admin]

The actual 'Liberator Liner' Consolidated Model 39 (Convair Model 104)/XR2Y-1:

[GTX_Admin]

Many of you will be familiar with the JB-17G turboprop testbed:




Well, what if it was the JB-24 instead:

[kitnut617]

Or taking a more aggressive stance:

Got the Pavla conversion to do this (1/72 of course    )

[Volkodav]

Liberators retained by the RAAF post war and converted to the MPA/GR role once the Lincolns start to come on line.  With the formation of the RAN FAA the RAAF has a hissy fit and dumps the MPA role as well seeing the Liberators transferred to RAN control (and colours) from 1948 where they are retained well into the 60s due to inter service rivalry making it difficult to secure money to replace them.  While replacement was too expensive many upgrades were possible.

[GTX_Admin]

I have plans for a RAAF PB4Y Privateer in 1/48...

[Volkodav]

I have plans for a RAAF PB4Y Privateer in 1/48...

Always liked the privateer, prefer it to the base Liberator.  Always thought it was quite odd to have replaced the Libs with Lincolns instead of something more advanced, maybe GAF could have licenced something for an entirely different requirement and let the RAAF keep the Libs for longer.  Maybe they could build a tactical bomber to replace the Beaufort / Beaufighter before then building the Canberra and keep the Libs until something like the Valiant or B-47 became available.  This would give lots of options for upgrades to keep the type competitive through the remainder of the 40s with replacement not becoming an issue until Korea kicks off, the large number of airframes delivered during the war would have also provided a massive pool of parts to sustain the type but also excess frames to convert to transports and MPAs.

[The Big Gimper]

Source: Consolidated PB4Y-1/1P Liberator by Steve Ginter

[GTX_Admin]

Interesting

[finsrin]

Such B-24 variants !
Wonder how well a 1/72 liner kit would sell ?
HVAR and 4 gun turret both make bad day for subs etc....

[elmayerle]

Just a thought, Canadian PB4Y=2's converted to Merlin-power for commonality with RCAF North Stars.

[The Big Gimper]

A B-12.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

That looks fantastic!  Definitely worth building.

[jcf]

Twin R-3350 powered concepts for the USAAC and USN. Like some other projects
they came to nothing because of the demand for the R-3350 on other programs,
primarily the B-29.


LB-29


XP5Y-1

The real B-12 was the B-10 with the P&W R-1820 Cyclones replaced with Wright R-1690 Hornets.

[GTX_Admin]

Cool shot:



Click for bigger

[GTX_Admin]

Something different:



Click for bigger

[GTX_Admin]

More:

[Logan Hartke]

It has no right to, but that really works. I think because the Davis wing is the only concession to aerodynamics the Liberator ever had, the streamlined Allisons don't seam nearly as out of place as I'd have expected them to. The cowlings seem to match early P-38s pretty closely.

[apophenia]

... The cowlings seem to match early P-38s pretty closely.

I was thinking that too. Odd that this versions has those early Lightning cowlings while those in Reply #54 look more like XP-40 cowls. I suppose the difference is supercharged versus turbocharged?

I note some variation in the Reply #55 images as well. The upper artwork has radiators let into the leading edge. The lower image lacks those leading edge inlets but has intakes on either side of the turbos.

[Logan Hartke]

I noticed that, too, and definitely prefer the P-38 vs the P-40 cowlings in this instance. I think the lower image in #55 has the turbo-supercharger and the upper one doesn't (like the Lockheed Model 322 Lightnings for the French & British).

[Sport25ing]

Some of you may have seen this, but those who don't (and those who have, but still not spotted all stuffs): it's pretty much an "almost" XB-41, with two turrets both on top and bottom + radar-guided 20mm gun turret on nose and tail (althought on the bottom)



The XB-24N Liberator - the next generation had the A-bomb not been drop

More info:
 In 1943, a single B-24D-40-CO (42-40234) had been experimentally fitted with a single fin-and-rudder assembly as the XB-24K. This experiment was so successful that in April of 1944 the USAAF decided that all future production Liberators would have a single vertical tail. The B-24N was to have been an adaptation of this design for production by Ford/Willow Run. This aircraft differed from the XB-24K primarily in having revised nose and tail gun positions. The nose had a unique Sperry-built "ball" turret, and the tail turret was not unlike that on the Boeing B-17 fortress.

The XB-24N (44-48753) was the prototype and was delivered on Nov 24, 1944. In addition to the XB-24N, seven YB-24Ns were completed before Liberator production terminated at Ford on May 31, 1945. At this time, orders for 5168 Ford-built B-24N-FO bombers were cancelled. The delivery of the few YB-24Ns by Ford brought the production of the Liberator to an end.

[GTX_Admin]

What is the guys doing to the top turret on that last one?

[GTX_Admin]

I noticed that, too, and definitely prefer the P-38 vs the P-40 cowlings in this instance. I think the lower image in #55 has the turbo-supercharger and the upper one doesn't (like the Lockheed Model 322 Lightnings for the French & British).

Agreed - a couple of P-38 engines might be a good sacrifice to do a build of this one.  Once could always do the reverse engine swap as well and have a pair of P&W R-1830 powered P-38s result as well.

[GTX_Admin]

Note different dorsal turret:

[GTX_Admin]

Has anyone seen a photo of the single RB-24L which was supposedly developed for training B-29 gunners on an identical remote gun system installed on a B-24L.

[kitnut617]

Note different dorsal turret:

I think you'll find the rear turret was the same one usually found in a Halifax too. I found a photo of it but of course, not now. I bought bits & bobs so I could build one of the B-24's I have like it.

Like this below

[raafif]

found this in a B-24 manual

[elmayerle]

Odd thought: XB-38 conversion, in the scale of your choice, applied to a B-24.  What B-24 model would be most appropriate to use for this?

[Jeffry Fontaine]

While watching a video about the Aleutian Island campaign I noticed something odd with the video clip showing a B-24 returning from a bombing mission against Attu or Kistka.  There appears to be a pair of machine guns fitted to the bottom of the nose glazing, one to each side of the bombardier's position that are arranged as fixed forward firing weapons.  I can not recall any documentation of such modifications being made to the B-24 to enable it to be used for strafing or to provide additional firepower against enemy aircraft attacking from the front.  Is this something that any of you are familiar with from past reading? 

The B-24 in question coming to a stop at time stamp 20:30 in this video:
The Best Film Archives Channel> Forgotten Battle of the Aleutian Islands | Alaska at War | WW2 Documentary in Color | 1943

[GTX_Admin]

While watching a video about the Aleutian Island campaign I noticed something odd with the video clip showing a B-24 returning from a bombing mission against Attu or Kistka.  There appears to be a pair of machine guns fitted to the bottom of the nose glazing, one to each side of the bombardier's position that are arranged as fixed forward firing weapons.  I can not recall any documentation of such modifications being made to the B-24 to enable it to be used for strafing or to provide additional firepower against enemy aircraft attacking from the front.  Is this something that any of you are familiar with from past reading? 

The B-24 in question coming to a stop at time stamp 20:30 in this video:
The Best Film Archives Channel> Forgotten Battle of the Aleutian Islands | Alaska at War | WW2 Documentary in Color | 1943

Some mention here:  http://www.warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=37378

[Jeffry Fontaine]

While watching a video about the Aleutian Island campaign I noticed something odd with the video clip showing a B-24 returning from a bombing mission against Attu or Kistka.  There appears to be a pair of machine guns fitted to the bottom of the nose glazing, one to each side of the bombardier's position that are arranged as fixed forward firing weapons.  I can not recall any documentation of such modifications being made to the B-24 to enable it to be used for strafing or to provide additional firepower against enemy aircraft attacking from the front.  Is this something that any of you are familiar with from past reading? 

The B-24 in question coming to a stop at time stamp 20:30 in this video:
The Best Film Archives Channel> Forgotten Battle of the Aleutian Islands | Alaska at War | WW2 Documentary in Color | 1943

Some mention here:  http://www.warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=37378

Thanks for the link Greg.  Seems to have been an authorized modification performed at depot level during the modification process to some of the B-24D model Liberators.