'might have beens' ... Finland

[tsrjoe]

ok here goes for starters ... please note those listed below are not in any particular order or time frame but were all SERIOUS evaluations for which there is SUPPORTING references  :)

 ... inspired by my recent trip to the Helsinki Air Museum and Lappeenranta airshow, sifting through some of the reference material i aquired provides some interesting 'what if' alternatives to equipment operated by the Finnish air Force ...

1940     official request 27-33 ariframes,
Supermarine Spitfire Mk.1 (A batch of Gloster built Hurricanes delivered)

1952     unofficial request,
Saab J.29 Tunnan         

1954     unofficial evaluation,
MiG. 15                         

1956     Air Defence Aircraft evaluation,
Dassault Mystere IV, Hawker Hunter F.4, MiG 17, Saab J.32 Lansen (Hunter was favoured type but Gnat F.1 purchased due to low unit cost)

1958     Primary Training Aircraft evaluation,
Hunting Jet Provost, Miles Student (Fouga Magister purchased due to favourable licencing agreements)

1960     procurement evaluation,
MiG. 19S (purchase not taken up)

1961     Multi Role/Air Defence Aircraft evaluation,
Dassault Mirage IIIC (Mirage was favoured type but Saab J.35F Draken purchased due political neutrality)

1975     Multi Role/Air Defence Aircraft (MiG. 21F replacement) evaluation,
MiG. 23MS, Sukhoi Su.20 (MiG 21bis was purchased due to the types low cost and commonality with the MiG 21F)

>1990c    NG. Fighter Aircraft (MiG. 21bis/J.35F replacement) evaluation,
Saab JAS.39 Gripen, GD. F.16C Fighting Falcon, MiG. 29 Fulcrum, Sukhoi Su.27 Flanker (MiG. 29 was expected to be the chosen type, but F.18 Hornet purchased due to proposed offset arrangements and higher specification)

>2000c   Assault Helicopter (Mi.8 replacement) evaluation,
EHI. EH.101 Merlin (Eurocopter NH.90 chosen due to favourable purchase cost and offset arrangements)

>2020   Hornet Replacement,
Lockheed F.35 Lightning, Saab Gripen NG.

... i will keep scanning through the references and add to this post when i come across any others... please feel free to augment the listing if you find any iv missed !

[tsrjoe]

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=172747&start=165

a few really interesting types mentioned most of which would make for really neat models or profiles ... Finnish HP.42 Heracles anyone ?

cheers, joe 

[tsrjoe]

ordered and evaluated Ilmavoimat aircraft ...

1930’s    Junkers Ju.86, HP. Hampden, Fairey Battle, He.111 and Bristol 142 looked at as potential bomber purchases

1930’s    He.112B.1, Fiat CR.42, Boeing P.12E Peashooter looked at as potential fighter purchases (the CR.42 was one of the types Sweden intended to send to assist Finland during the Winter War!)

1940     Official request 27-33 Supermarine Spitfire Mk.1 (A batch of Gloster built Hurricanes delivered) also Lockheed Hudson and Blackburn Roc/Skua requested

1940’s   Request for Do.217 nightfighters and Ju.87 Stuka bombers
            Request for He.111 and DFS. troop carrying gliders

1952     unofficial request, Saab J.29 Tunnan         

1954     unofficial evaluation, MiG. 15 

1950’s   Jet Trainer evaluation, Vampire T.11, MiG.15UTI, the former being chosen as the Vampire was in service                         

1956     Air Defence Aircraft evaluation, Dassault Mystere IV, Hawker Hunter F.4, MiG.15bis, MiG. 17, Saab J.32 Lansen (Hunter was favoured type but Gnat F.1 purchased due to low unit cost)

1958     Primary Training Aircraft evaluation, Valmet Tuuli III, Piaggo P.149D, Saab 91 Safir, the latter being chosen as most suitable

1958     Training Aircraft evaluation, Hunting Jet Provost, Miles Student, Fouga Magister (the Fouga being purchased due to favourable licencing agreements)

1960     procurement evaluation, MiG. 19S (purchase not taken up)

1961     Multi Role/Air Defence Aircraft evaluation, Dassault Mirage IIIC, Saab J.35XS, MiG.21M, Northrop F.5A Freedom Fighter (the Mirage was favoured type but Saab J.35F Draken purchased due political neutrality)

1970’s   Unsolicited proposal by HSA. for the Harrier GR.1

1970’s   Light Transport, Beechcraft King Air (not procured)

1975     Multi Role/Air Defence Aircraft (MiG. 21F replacement) evaluation, MiG. 23MS, Sukhoi Su.20 (MiG 21bis was purchased due to the types low cost and commonality with the MiG 21F)

1970’s   Jet trainer evaluation, HSA. Hawk, DB. Alpha Jet, Saab 105XS, Aero L.39, Aermacchi MB.339, the Hawk being the selected type

1980’s   Liaison Aircraft evaluation (Piper Arrow replacement), Piper Malibu, Beechcraft A36 Bonanza, Cessna 208 Caravan, the Caravan being favoured although the Valmet L.90 Redigo was chosen in a political decision

1980    Transport Aircraft evaluation, CASA. C.212, DeHavilland DHC.5 Buffalo, Antonov An.26, a further Fokker F.27 was purchased to augment the existing service fleet

1980’s  Target towing/Mapping Aircraft replacement, Cessna Citation II, Sabreliner 75A, Sabreliner 65, Falcon 20F, Learjet 35A, the Falcon and Sabreliner being favoured although the Learjet was chosen on price

1992    NG. Fighter Aircraft (MiG. 21bis/J.35F replacement) evaluation,
Saab JAS.39 Gripen, GD. F.16C Fighting Falcon, MiG. 29 Fulcrum, Sukhoi Su.27 Flanker, MDD/NG. F/A.18 Hornet (MiG. 29 was expected to be the chosen type, but F.18 Hornet purchased due to offset arrangements and higher specification)

2005    Transport Aircraft evaluation, Alenia C.27J Spartan, EADS. CASA. C.295M, the latter being selected

2000c   Assault Helicopter (Mi.8 replacement) evaluation, EHI. EH.101 Merlin (Eurocopter NH.90 chosen due to favourable purchase cost and offset arrangements)

2000’s  Future Liaison Aircraft evaluation, Pilatus PC.12, Beechcraft Super King Air UC.12M (Pilatus PC.12 chosen as being most suitable type)

2000’s  Attack Helicopter proposal, Boeing AH.64D Apache, Eurocopter Tiger (it has been noted the Apache is favoured by the Maavoimat)

2000's  Special Duties (F.27 FF-1 replacement) CASA. C.295 conversion

2020's? Hornet Replacement, Lockheed F.35A Lightning, Saab Gripen NG

[elmayerle]

Wonder how a CR.42DB would look in Swedish or Finnish markings?  Perhaps in winter camoflage with skis?

Second question, any evidence that Finnland every evaluated the Harrier for any particular role?

[perttime]

November 1939: Finnish Embassy in Washington DC investigated the possibility to purchase Grumman F4F Wildcat, Seversky EP-1 or Brewster F2A "Buffalo".  The Grumman and Seversky were not readily available. 44 Brewster Model 239s were purchased.

1942-1943, Germany offered 22 captured MiG-3 aircraft. They were destroyed in an air raid before they could be delivered.

from Finnish Wikipedia:
http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suomen_ilmavoimien_h%C3%A4vitt%C3%A4j%C3%A4hankinnat_1940%E2%80%931944
http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suomen_ilmavoimien_h%C3%A4vitt%C3%A4j%C3%A4hankinnat

[GTX_Admin]

Lots of fuel for the  Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda GB!  There is still time folks!!!

[Volkodav]

How about we make Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda an open ended build with monthly or quarterly comps.  Its just too much fun to see it end now, especially with gems of ideas and concepts like this research from tsrjoe coming through.

[Daryl J.]

 Agree.

[upnorth]

How about Sukhoi Su-24 Fencers for maritime strike and recce?

[perttime]

From 1947 to 1990, an aircraft primarily designed for hitting ground targets is pretty much out of the question - unless you go for Alternative History.

Among other things, the 1947 Paris Peace Treaty banned Bomber aircraft, and purchases of ANY aircraft or aircraft parts originating in Germany or Japan. The number of combat aircraft was limited to 60.
After the re-unification of Germany in 1990, Finland unilaterally declared void the restrictions on military capability. Nobody objected...

[GTX_Admin]

How about we make Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda an open ended build with monthly or quarterly comps.  Its just too much fun to see it end now, especially with gems of ideas and concepts like this research from tsrjoe coming through.

It's an idea but first let's finish the existing GB (last week folks!!!).

[Geoff]

I seem to remember a conversation where the Finns wanted Hudsons, any validity in that joe??

[Daryl J.]

What restrictions/permissions did Finland have regarding airborne reconniassance?

[tsrjoe]

1939/40 the Finnish attache to the UK. enquired as to the avaliability of varius aircraft types such as the Spitfire, Hurricane, Hudson, Roc/Skua, Lysander, Blenhiem, Battle and Hampden (interestingly the Wellington did not seem to be mentioned in the files iv seen here altho is noted in another source ?)

the Hurricane, Blenhiem, Lysander and Roc/Skua were all sanctioned for release and sale to Finland, however the Spitfire and Hudson were not due to (stated) 'limited numbers of the types in RAF. service' (and i assume the latter being a US. sourced type)

the discussed Battle and Hampden were deemed obselescent and thus unsuitable

... however an RAF. Hudson did accompany the Finnish Hurricanes across the North Sea on their delivery flight :)

[tsrjoe]

im sure someone out there can answer the legal aspect of reconaissance restrictions re the Ilmavoimat, however post war the Finnish Air Force have operated a number of types in the photographic/mapping role ...

1940's Do.17, Blenhiem
1950's/60's Vampire, Pembroke, DC.3
1970's/80's DC.3, IL.28
1990's/00's DC.3, F.27(FF-1) Learjet

the SIGINT/ELINT. equipped Fokker Friendship (FF-1) is due to be replaced in the near future by CASA C.295 (CC-1) possibly with Israeli sourced fitout ?

[Geoff]

Thanks

[elmayerle]

im sure someone out there can answer the legal aspect of reconaissance restrictions re the Ilmavoimat, however post war the Finnish Air Force have operated a number of types in the photographic/mapping role ...

1940's Do.17, Blenhiem
1950's/60's Vampire, Pembroke, DC.3
1970's/80's DC.3, IL.28
1990's/00's DC.3, F.27(FF-1) Learjet

the SIGINT/ELINT. equipped Fokker Friendship (FF-1) is due to be replaced in the near future by CASA C.295 (CC-1) possibly with Israeli sourced fitout ?

Please note that the Finnish Learjets are fitted with ESM gear, too.  These are most evident in the bulged tailcone and in antennae flush-mounted in each tip tank.

[perttime]

There were no restrictions on recce capabilities.

... what I posted about the bomber ban was based on what was constantly said in the media. I just looked up the Finnish translation of the 1947 Paris Peace Treaty, and the wording doesn't say exactly what I said before.

http://www.finlex.fi/fi/sopimukset/sopsteksti/1947/19470020
"Suomi älköön pitäkö tai hankkiko lentokoneita, jotka ovat suunnitellut ensisijassa pommituskoneiksi sisäpuolisin pomminkuljetuslaittein."
My translation:
"Finland shall not keep or acquire aircraft that are primarily designed as bombers, with internal bomb transportation equipment".

The number of combat aircraft and men in the air force was limited
Tonnage and number of men in the navy was also limited. Submarines, Motor Torpedo Boats and "special assault vessels" were banned, as well as self-propelled or guided munitions except for torpedoes that are commonly used on permitted types of vessels.

[upnorth]

"Finland shall not keep or acquire aircraft that are primarily designed as bombers, with internal bomb transportation equipment".

So, given the fact that it doesn't have a weapons bay, this could still keep the Su-24 in the running for Finn service so long as it was limited to things like recce and anti-shipping and not  dropping iron?

[perttime]

"Finland shall not keep or acquire aircraft that are primarily designed as bombers, with internal bomb transportation equipment".

So, given the fact that it doesn't have a weapons bay, this could still keep the Su-24 in the running for Finn service so long as it was limited to things like recce and anti-shipping and not  dropping iron?

Actually... as long as it doesn't have a bomb bay ...
... although it seems that for a time it was interpreted as "as long as it doesn't drop weapons on anything that is on the surface". Not sure where that interpretation came from.

Another consideration is that the total number of Combat Aircraft (interpreted to exclude trainers, transports, etc) was limited to 60.
That is not all that much for a country that has a fair amount of land area and long borders. So... you really want aircraft that can be realistically used in various air-to-air tasks.

[upnorth]

Sounds like possibly more an F-4 Phantom job then.

[perttime]

Second question, any evidence that Finnland every evaluated the Harrier for any particular role?

I doubt it.

I was just browsing some books by Jyrki Laukkanen, flight test engineer and Air Force test pilot from 1969 to 2002. By the time he published his Test Pilot's Diary in 2009 (in Finnish),  he'd flown 153 different aircraft types and doesn't mention the Harrier.  The Harrier is not mentioned in his books on the history of Finnish test flying either.

[GTX_Admin]

I like the idea of a Finnish Viggen.

[perttime]

1992    NG. Fighter Aircraft (MiG. 21bis/J.35F replacement) evaluation,
Saab JAS.39 Gripen, GD. F.16C Fighting Falcon, MiG. 29 Fulcrum, Sukhoi Su.27 Flanker, MDD/NG. F/A.18 Hornet (MiG. 29 was expected to be the chosen type, but F.18 Hornet purchased due to offset arrangements and higher specification)

I think... based on Wikipedia article (I don't have the original sources at hand now.)

1988: government authorization to look for replacements. 20 x MiG-29 and 40 x Western aircraft was expected.
1990: request for proposals were sent for Mirage 2000,  F-16, and Gripen. No RFP for MiG 29, and it was dropped from consideration in November.
1991: F/A-18 Hornet was added to the list.
1992: test flights and evaluations, F/A-18 Hornet was selected.

Personally, I think the Gripen had a good chance, except it was a bit wet behind the ears, at the time.

[tsrjoe]

re Harrier, the Finnish Ilmavoimat did send a delegation upon invite to Switzerland (as did Norway and Denmark) during the types demonstration there, altho as noted no actual test flying by any of the invited nations took place (this being a capability demonstration by HS. Harrier test pilot John Farley)

Switzerland.mpg

According to Hawker files at Brooklands, there was an unsolicited approach by HSA. to Finland re the type at that time and it was noted that altho there 'seems to be an interest ... a purchase is not foreseen (due to) budgetary constraints' the aircraft would have been (within that timescale) the GR.3/1A variant without the extended nose and ESM. tail fitment

pretty tenious i know, there is also a note at Warton re. a brochure and 'detailed information' on the BAC. Jaguar being asked for by Finnish Air Staff, c.1973, again wither an actual interest or merly fact finding is not known

cheers, Joe