Author Topic: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2  (Read 208738 times)

Offline Claymore

  • It's all done with smoke and mirrors!
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Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #550 on: June 04, 2024, 07:23:30 PM »
My apologies for the lack of posts. A combination of having work done on the house, sailing around the Greek Islands, and a lack of motivation to paint 3 models at the same time! Anyhoo... A bit of a re-post to get people back up to speed...

An Alternative Take on Bristish Cruiser Tanks:

In October 1928, Christie’s M1928 was demonstrated at Fort Myer, Virginia. There the Army's Chief of Staff, General Charles P. Summerall, and other high-ranking officers were impressed, however, the Tank Board was less enthusiastic. They noted that the vehicle's armour was very thin and could not survive penetration by the smallest armour-piercing antitank rifle or artillery piece. The Board also differed with Christie on its guidelines for tank capabilities, which were based on a radically different theory of armoured warfare than that used by Christie. For the Infantry Tank Board, armour and firepower were more important design criteria than mobility, and the M1928 prototype was passed to the Cavalry for further evaluation. The Cavalry's thinking at that time was based on armoured cars, and it wanted to develop the M1928 as an armoured car chassis. Once again, Christie's concept of how his vehicles should be used, together with his difficult nature, resulted in disputes with Army officials. Ultimately, the Secretary of War rejected mass production of the M1928, citing excessive acquisition costs.

Christie then, somewhat foolishly, felt he was justified in selling his inventions to the highest bidder. A long and complex series of exchanges between Christie and foreign governments followed. These were technically illegal since Christie never obtained approval of the US Department of State, Army Ordnance, or the Department of War to transfer his designs to potentially hostile governments.

Initially, in early 1930, Christie promised to sell his M1928 tank design to the Polish government, but the deal fell through and, to avoid potential litigation, he eventually returned the payment made by the Polish government, which never obtained the tank they had ordered.

Although the USSR did not have diplomatic relations with the USA at the time, and was prohibited from obtaining military equipment or weapons, Soviet OGPU agents at the trade front organization AMTORG managed to secure plans and specifications for the Christie M1928 tank chassis in March 1930 using a series of deceptions. On 28 April 1930, Christie's company agreed to sell AMTORG two Christie-designed tanks, documented falsely as agricultural farm tractors, and without prior approval of the U.S. Army or Department of State. They were successfully shipped to the USSR where the Soviets used them to develop the BT series of tanks, forerunners of the massively produced T-34 tank of World War II.

Needless to say, the US Government, and the Department of State in particular, were not amused and Mr Christie was promptly arrested by the FBI and imprisoned on dubious charges of failing to gain export licences and tax fraud rather than aiding and abetting potentially hostile governments.

After favourable reports on observation of Soviet tank activities in 1936, the British War Office tentatively approached the US Government regarding the possible purchase of a license of the Christie design. Not unsurprisingly, the request was politely but firmly turned down.

Meanwhile, across the Pond in Britain, Sidney Horstmann had been developing suspension designs from the 1920s and through his Slow Motion Suspension Company had by 1930 produced a new design using two road wheels on a single bogie, each connected to a bell crank with a horizontal coil spring between the crank arms, and double-acting shock absorbers to control recoil. In 1934, John Carden of Vickers-Armstrongs had a "bright idea" for a new type of tank suspension and partnered with Horstmann's Slow Motion to turn it into a working design. Unfortunately, Carden was killed in an air crash in December 1935, but by this time he had designed a lighter tank platform that had been taken up as the A9, although later known as the Cruiser Mk I. In this version, one large wheel was fitted on one bell crank, and two smaller wheels to a shared arm on the second crank. This went into production in 1937 as an interim type until the Army could develop something better. The same suspension was then used on the larger A10 Cruiser Mk II which came to its ultimate form as the Valentine tank.

At much the same time in the US, Harry Knox an engineer for Rock Island Arsenal, was developing a similar two-wheeled bogey suspension unit but with an innovative double vertical volute spring in place of Horstmann’s coil spring. The suspension was developed in 1933 and was first tested on a T2E1 light tank prototype in 1934. The Rock Island Arsenal would go on to produce the M1 Combat Car, which entered service with the US Army in 1937.

Horstmann and Knox were fully aware of each other’s work, and it didn’t take long for Horstmann to convince the UK Government to approach the US Government for licencing rights to the more efficient volute spring suspension design. Easier to produce and easier to maintain and replace in the field than Christie’s design, the VVSS seemed like an idea solution to the UK’s future cruiser tank designs. Fortunately, the US Government were more favourable in their response to this request and the rest, as they say, is history…









Pass the razor saw, there is work to be done!

Offline Claymore

  • It's all done with smoke and mirrors!
  • Alt Hist AFV guy with a thing for Bradley turrets
Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #551 on: June 04, 2024, 07:25:43 PM »
An Alternative Take on Bristish Cruiser Tanks:










Pass the razor saw, there is work to be done!

Offline Claymore

  • It's all done with smoke and mirrors!
  • Alt Hist AFV guy with a thing for Bradley turrets
Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #552 on: June 04, 2024, 07:27:45 PM »
An Alternative Take on Bristish Cruiser Tanks:










Pass the razor saw, there is work to be done!

Offline Claymore

  • It's all done with smoke and mirrors!
  • Alt Hist AFV guy with a thing for Bradley turrets
Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #553 on: June 04, 2024, 07:28:50 PM »
An Alternative Take on Bristish Cruiser Tanks:



Watch this space!  ;)
Pass the razor saw, there is work to be done!

Offline Old Wombat

  • "We'll see when I've finished whether I'm showing off or simply embarrassing myself."
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Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #554 on: June 04, 2024, 11:10:38 PM »
Nice work! :smiley:

Waiting ...






PS: how terrible for you having to sailing around the Greek Islands! :o ::)
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline Claymore

  • It's all done with smoke and mirrors!
  • Alt Hist AFV guy with a thing for Bradley turrets
Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #555 on: June 05, 2024, 12:29:46 AM »
Nice work! :smiley:

Waiting ...

PS: how terrible for you having to sailing around the Greek Islands! :o ::)

Thanks mate!

Oh I know, sometimes life is just a beach!  ;)
Pass the razor saw, there is work to be done!

Offline Claymore

  • It's all done with smoke and mirrors!
  • Alt Hist AFV guy with a thing for Bradley turrets
Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #556 on: June 06, 2024, 10:13:09 PM »
An Alternative Take on Bristish Cruiser Tanks:

Early days on the Alt Comet Cruiser Tank (A34). The Tamiya base model I am using is, as always with Tamiya, very well molded and fits together like a dream but just for once Takom's / Bronco's irritating habit of lhaving every bit of detail as a separate piece might have served me better. I am having to cut away all of the beautiful pre-molded Christie suspension detail in order to clear the sides for the new HVSS units. Ah well, no rest for the wicked, as they say!

WIP pic show (on the left) the original detailed starboard side plate and (on the right) the cleaned port side - a thin sheet of plastic card will cover the various unwanted holes.  :smiley:


Pass the razor saw, there is work to be done!

Offline taiidantomcat

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Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #557 on: June 06, 2024, 11:08:27 PM »
You could write the book on what-if Armor. And I would buy it!!

Thank you for the pictures on the suspension upgrades. I am trying to do a few suspension switcheroos myself and they are a bear! Any help or tips or tricks is appreciated. I'm struggling with setting the height, keeping wheels aligned, and making sure everything is level. I'm looking into creating some jigs at this point, but any advice would be great to hear

love this thread
"They know you can do anything, So the question is, what don't you do?"

-David Fincher

Offline Claymore

  • It's all done with smoke and mirrors!
  • Alt Hist AFV guy with a thing for Bradley turrets
Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #558 on: June 07, 2024, 12:13:52 AM »
You could write the book on what-if Armor. And I would buy it!!

Thank you for the pictures on the suspension upgrades. I am trying to do a few suspension switcheroos myself and they are a bear! Any help or tips or tricks is appreciated. I'm struggling with setting the height, keeping wheels aligned, and making sure everything is level. I'm looking into creating some jigs at this point, but any advice would be great to hear

love this thread

You’re most kind!

The secret is ensuring you have the ground clearance under the hull set correct/at the desired height with some suitable block (wood, plastic card, whatever works) and make sure the hull is level and on a flat surface.  That way, when hanging the new suspension, all road wheels can be set to sit on the flat surface in the knowledge that the ride height is correct and uniform.  Remember to take any track thickness into account when calculating the scale ground clearance under the hull. 

Alternatively, some sort of jig to hold everything in place while the glue sets.
Pass the razor saw, there is work to be done!

Offline raafif

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Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #559 on: June 07, 2024, 07:05:46 AM »

Alternatively, some sort of jig to hold everything in place while the glue sets.

Or you could wing it and try four or five times to get each suspension right like I did  :-\ :(

Offline Claymore

  • It's all done with smoke and mirrors!
  • Alt Hist AFV guy with a thing for Bradley turrets
Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #560 on: June 07, 2024, 05:09:05 PM »

Or you could wing it and try four or five times to get each suspension right like I did  :-\ :(

Mate, I hear your pain!  ;)
Pass the razor saw, there is work to be done!

Offline Claymore

  • It's all done with smoke and mirrors!
  • Alt Hist AFV guy with a thing for Bradley turrets
Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #561 on: June 09, 2024, 02:46:15 AM »
An Alternative Take on Bristish Cruiser Tanks Update:

Work continues apace on the Alt (A34) Comet although there will be a short interlude for a few days as I visit one of my brothers on Islay (an island off the west coast of Scotland - well known for its Whisky).
Here are the latest WIP pics...


Pass the razor saw, there is work to be done!

Offline Frank3k

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Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #562 on: June 09, 2024, 04:39:25 AM »
 Lagavulin and Laphroaig are my two favorites from Islay.

Offline Claymore

  • It's all done with smoke and mirrors!
  • Alt Hist AFV guy with a thing for Bradley turrets
Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #563 on: June 09, 2024, 05:17:56 AM »
Lagavulin and Laphroaig are my two favorites from Islay.

👍 Nom, nom, nom… 🥃🥃👍
Pass the razor saw, there is work to be done!

Offline finsrin

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Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #564 on: June 10, 2024, 02:29:03 PM »
Most interesting suspension mods.   :smiley:  Do keep posting !

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Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #565 on: June 12, 2024, 06:30:49 AM »
Each one of those is a double take.
It goes something like this.. "Yeah nice Caunter Scheme.. wait.. what ?"
 :smiley: :smiley:

Offline Claymore

  • It's all done with smoke and mirrors!
  • Alt Hist AFV guy with a thing for Bradley turrets
Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #566 on: June 12, 2024, 03:45:33 PM »
 Many thanks - all a bit of fun!  :smiley:
Pass the razor saw, there is work to be done!

Offline Claymore

  • It's all done with smoke and mirrors!
  • Alt Hist AFV guy with a thing for Bradley turrets
Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #567 on: June 14, 2024, 11:19:46 PM »
Lagavulin and Laphroaig are my two favorites from Islay.

A very successful trip to one of my ancestral homes (on my mother's side of the family). Also popped into a few of the many distilleries on the island too - including your favourites (just for the pics)! 

If you didn't already know, they only sit about a mile apart.

Pass the razor saw, there is work to be done!

Offline Frank3k

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Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #568 on: June 15, 2024, 12:03:36 AM »
Similar but still different peaty taste!

Offline Claymore

  • It's all done with smoke and mirrors!
  • Alt Hist AFV guy with a thing for Bradley turrets
Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #569 on: June 15, 2024, 02:04:31 AM »
Similar but still different peaty taste!

 :smiley:
Pass the razor saw, there is work to be done!

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
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Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #570 on: June 16, 2024, 08:53:51 PM »
How about an Infantry tank, i.e. Matilda with VVSS?

Offline Claymore

  • It's all done with smoke and mirrors!
  • Alt Hist AFV guy with a thing for Bradley turrets
Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #571 on: June 17, 2024, 12:55:57 AM »
How about an Infantry tank, i.e. Matilda with VVSS?

My latest project was to look at what might have been had Christie’s suspension not been available for Britain’s cruiser tanks. Britain’s infantry tanks didn’t use Christie suspension and so were entirely home grown - why change?  Having said that, I have done a Matilda / Valentine cross before and so I guess an alternative with VVSS could be a thing.  :smiley:

« Last Edit: June 17, 2024, 02:49:37 PM by Claymore »
Pass the razor saw, there is work to be done!

Offline Claymore

  • It's all done with smoke and mirrors!
  • Alt Hist AFV guy with a thing for Bradley turrets
Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #572 on: June 21, 2024, 02:31:26 AM »
An Alternative Take on Bristish Cruiser Tanks Update:

Between going off on a short break and laying a new floor, I have been driving myself crazy building the new HVSS and tracks (both courtesy of AFV Club) for the Alt (A34) Comet. With 86 track links per side (total 172 links) and 4 pieces to each link (688 parts), it has been no small task with each little bit needing to be cut off the sprue and cleaned up first before construction! Madness aside, I had a good sesh today and managed to get the infernal task completed. Now onto the rest of the beast!

WIP pics...




« Last Edit: June 21, 2024, 06:32:41 AM by Claymore »
Pass the razor saw, there is work to be done!

Offline finsrin

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Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #573 on: June 21, 2024, 03:32:43 AM »
Really like the Shermanized suspension modification.  :smiley:

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Re: Claymore's AH AFVs: Take 2
« Reply #574 on: June 21, 2024, 06:44:46 AM »
An Alternative Take on Bristish Cruiser Tanks Update:

With 86 track links per side (total 172 links) and 4 pieces to each link (688 parts).......

Damn you tracks with end connectors  ;D

As always, they are worth the effort