Author Topic: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 72634 times)

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2013, 12:50:43 PM »
Yes.
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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2013, 12:54:55 PM »
Good.  Thanks.

There is a Hasegawa B+ kit in the stash already.   But I think it has the 65% LERX.

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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2013, 01:01:33 PM »
AV-8A, stationed in Alaska, large drop tanks and Americanized Sea Eagles.   Or Greece.  Or Turkey.
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2013, 09:24:08 AM »
Good.  Thanks.

There is a Hasegawa B+ kit in the stash already.   But I think it has the 65% LERX.
There are plenty of aftermarket replacements for that.

I've got a 1/48 Av-8B+ that's going to be combined with AV-8B+ and GR.7 cockpit detailing sets to make a Harrier FGR.11 in FAA markings (204 Sqdn, I reckon).  Might do one as an operational one and one as a "showbird".

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2013, 08:12:37 AM »
Why did the first generation Harrier use fairly small auxiliary fuel tanks?  Weight restrictions?  Mission profile?   
 
Would fitment of somewhat enlarged tanks be reasonable?
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2013, 08:28:49 AM »
AV-8A, stationed in Alaska, large drop tanks and Americanized Sea Eagles.   Or Greece.  Or Turkey.
I doubt you could do both the large drop tanks and the Americanized Sea Eagles, both are heavy stores which need the inboard pylon on each wing.  The outboard pylons don't have near the load capacity of the inboard ones.  I could see one tank and one missile.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2013, 08:32:33 AM »
Why did the first generation Harrier use fairly small auxiliary fuel tanks?  Weight restrictions?  Mission profile?   
 
Would fitment of somewhat enlarged tanks be reasonable?
If memory serves me correctly, mostly overall weight restrictions.  The larger fuel tanks were used on occasion for ferry missions where nothing was carried on the outboard hardpoints.  The Harrier's forte was BAI and it wouldn't need external tankage for that.  External tanks would primarily be for ferry operations when you'd also have strakes beneath the fuselage rather than gunpods.

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2013, 08:34:57 AM »
Thanks.
BAI?
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2013, 08:54:01 AM »
Thanks.
BAI?
BAI = Battlefield Air Interdiction - Close Support that crosses over the line of battle.

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #34 on: March 18, 2013, 08:01:43 PM »
Advanced BAI, even. Initially they were to operate damned near in the mud with the infantry (dispersed at clearings not far behind the artillery), partially due to their short combat radius & partially because they were supposed to supply "immediate" support to the infantry.
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #35 on: March 24, 2013, 12:41:45 AM »
AV-8A, overall satin olive drab and fluorescent red-orange outer flying surfaces.  U.S. Army.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 01:26:54 AM by Daryl J. »
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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #36 on: March 24, 2013, 09:46:18 AM »
Ok...another question if I may:

Would the AV-8A need visible upgrades to drop smart bombs?   

Reason for the question:   The Army keeps their Harriers through the first Iraq conflict.   
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Offline Scooterman

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #37 on: March 24, 2013, 10:06:08 AM »
Not really.  Any aircraft could carry a LGB, but would need somebody else, either in another aircraft or on the ground, to laze the target if the aircraft didn't have it's own capibility.  Your timeframe could work, say if the Harrier had used a Pave Spike pod on the C/L and LGBs on the inboards.  A lot of work to do that though in a AV-8A.  Granted the Corps today fly LITENING pods and LGBs on Harrier IIs but the workload between an A model and B are very different.

Offline taiidantomcat

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #38 on: March 24, 2013, 10:20:06 AM »
Ok...another question if I may:

Would the AV-8A need visible upgrades to drop smart bombs?   

Reason for the question:   The Army keeps their Harriers through the first Iraq conflict.




Nope, just need one of these guys around and you're golden  :)
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #39 on: March 24, 2013, 10:54:00 AM »
Well, I'm not sure of the equipment volume requirements, but I keep thinking of a Harrier GR.3 nose with the LRMTS replaced by a suitable designator's guts.  Add in the LIDs from the R/L AV-8C and you'd have a nice combo.

I could see such a Harrier variant in a nice two- or three-tone desert scheme over Irag in Desert Storm; especially since there've been AV-8A's in such temporary schemes for war games.

As another approach, since the US Army also evaluated the Northrop F-5, a F-5E in Army markings with the radar nose replaced by the short recce nose with the cameras replaced by the optics from a designator pod and one of the cannon replaced by the guts of the pod, the barrel opening now serving as a cooling air scoop for the electronics.  This could make a nice team display of an attack Harrier and it's Fast-FAC F-5E designator, both in Asia Minor schemes for southwest asian conflicts.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 11:30:43 AM by elmayerle »

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #40 on: March 24, 2013, 12:45:21 PM »
Quote
As another approach, since the US Army also evaluated the Northrop F-5, a F-5E in Army markings with the radar nose replaced by the short recce nose with the cameras replaced by the optics from a designator pod and one of the cannon replaced by the guts of the pod, the barrel opening now serving as a cooling air scoop for the electronics.  This could make a nice team display of an attack Harrier and it's Fast-FAC F-5E designator, both in Asia Minor schemes for southwest asian conflicts.

Such as the nose found in the AFV Club RF-5E?   Or are there a variety of noses?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edit:   Perused the Stash Storage Department and found a Monogram F-5E.   There is a short recce nose right in the kit.     :icon_music: :icon_music: :icon_music:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And thanks to each for the RW information. :)
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 02:19:49 AM by Daryl J. »
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #41 on: March 25, 2013, 12:12:24 AM »
Ok...another question if I may:

Would the AV-8A need visible upgrades to drop smart bombs?   

Reason for the question:   The Army keeps their Harriers through the first Iraq conflict.


If you look carefully at this Marine Corp AV-8B+ you'll see it has a GBU-31 JDAM on the inner pylon,  I thought this was a guided bomb ---

I tried to get a good photo of it but people just kept getting in the way.

 

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #42 on: March 25, 2013, 02:21:09 AM »
Note the painted cold nozzles and open front landing gear doors.
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Offline Weaver

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #43 on: March 25, 2013, 03:13:18 AM »
Daryl's question was about an AV-8A, i.e. 1st generation. However I think the answer's still the same: carrying an LGB and dropping it is a bit of switchology and wiring. RAF GR.3s dropped Paveways during the Falklands war on targets illuminated by FACs on the ground, so it must be possible for a 1st gen aircraft.

As to re-packing the guts of a designaotr pod into the nose of a GR.3, I think that's on too. If you look at a contemporary TIALD pod, it isn't huge. You might have to fatten/stretch/reprofile the nose extension a little, but you're going to have to do that anyway to accomodate the sensor head. You'd probably also have to lose the side-facing F.95 camera, but again, probably a worthwhile trade-off. If the mose ended up longer and heavier enough to cause a problem, you could always fit the extended tail fin from the 2-seater to compensate.
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Offline Weaver

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #44 on: March 25, 2013, 03:15:32 AM »
Personally, I'm waiting for the new Airfix GR.1/GR.3 kits because I want to do a series of models along the lines that the US Army, British Army and Royal Marines all won the 1960s arguments about CAS and ended up with their own Harriers with their own equipment fits.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #45 on: March 25, 2013, 03:33:55 AM »
Quote
As another approach, since the US Army also evaluated the Northrop F-5, a F-5E in Army markings with the radar nose replaced by the short recce nose with the cameras replaced by the optics from a designator pod and one of the cannon replaced by the guts of the pod, the barrel opening now serving as a cooling air scoop for the electronics.  This could make a nice team display of an attack Harrier and it's Fast-FAC F-5E designator, both in Asia Minor schemes for southwest asian conflicts.

Such as the nose found in the AFV Club RF-5E?   Or are there a variety of noses?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edit:   Perused the Stash Storage Department and found a Monogram F-5E.   There is a short recce nose right in the kit.     :icon_music: :icon_music: :icon_music:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The short recce nose from the Monogram kit was what I had in mind.  It's designed to be a line replaceable unit for the radar on F-5's when basic recce ability is needed quickly.  The RF-5E is a dedicated conversion for more intensive recce operations.  If you want a two-seat recce/fast FAC aircraft, this nose will fit on a F-5F but I'm not at all certain  that it would fit on a F-5B since that and the T-38 had the front cockpit "shoved forward" into where the guns are on the single-seater.

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #46 on: March 25, 2013, 04:04:34 AM »
Quote
Personally, I'm waiting for the new Airfix GR.1/GR.3 kits because I want to do a series of models along the lines that the US Army, British Army and Royal Marines all won the 1960s arguments about CAS and ended up with their own Harriers with their own equipment fits.

Nice!

 Monogram's early Harrier is a jewel IMHO and shouldn't be too hard to rescribe the more visible details.   And if the Museum of Flight's Harrier is any indication, leaving the more complex raised panel lines is acceptable too.    But given the rumor of 1:48 resin AV-8A gubbins coming along soon and the decals being recently issued, one wonders just what styrene is to be moulded soon. 
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #47 on: March 25, 2013, 04:30:48 AM »
Well, one can hope for a re-release of either the Monogram kit or the Tamiya Harrier GR.1.  I, for one, would also love to see the conversion bits for doing a proper AV-8C from either of those.

I keep having this idea of a real-world whif where the Spanish upgrade their AV-8S aircraft to a standard comparable to the AV-8C before seeing them to the Thai's.

Offline AGRA

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #48 on: March 25, 2013, 06:56:18 AM »
Ok...another question if I may:

Would the AV-8A need visible upgrades to drop smart bombs?   

Reason for the question:   The Army keeps their Harriers through the first Iraq conflict.

Dropping LGBs doesn’t require much more some switches and wiring if there is another source of laser designation (another aircraft or ground asset). But the hard part then is making sure you are in the right place so the bomb can fly to the target. For a fixed target like a bridge this can be managed but for more complex targets it can be very hit and miss in that the bomb is dropped outside of the zone needed to be able to see the laser designation.

The solution to this problem is to equip the LGB dropper with a laser spot tracker. This is a sight able to see where the laser is pointing. So the pilot will have a target display via the HUD of where the laser designation spot is and so fly the aircraft into an appropriate position to drop the bomb to be able to hit the target. One of the best known is the PAVE PENNY fitted to the side of the nose of the A-10 and under the intake of the A-7.

The RAF Harrier GR.3 had a laser spot tracker mounted in the nose and a more complex nav-attack system than the USMC AV-8A Harrier. The RAF Harrier had an INS and moving map display which was removed from the AV-8A to allow for quicker turn around and ease of sea operations (no need to stabilise the INS before takeoff). All of this reduced their strike potential.

So if you want a US Army Harrier flying precision strike in the Gulf War then perhaps they could be built to the RAF standard not the USMC.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #49 on: March 25, 2013, 07:01:03 AM »
Well, a modified RAF spec, including the radios for contacting engaged units (the aerial on top that the AV-8A has) and with the LRMTS replaced with the guts of PAVE PENNY or equivalent.  By the time of the first Gulf War, I could also see the US Army Harriers reworked to incorporate the same upgrades the AV-8C has in our timeline.