North American Sabres & Furys (in 1/72)

[kitnut617]

These aircraft have been on my absolute favorite aircraft list for ages. I just love the look of them. In so much I have quite a few in the stash although I only have one built. One of my theme builds is to make as many models of as many different variants of the same aircraft and I've collected quite a few just to do that. This thread will be my build thread for the Sabre and Fury.

Now the reason behind this new thread is because just recently I have been going through the stash to remunerate just what I have there, and along the way I found I had models that I can't remember buying and some had been added into another box. Two such were a couple of conversions, one was an FJ-3 conversion, and the other an Avon Sabre conversion. I've been looking at them the last couple of nights to see what I need to build them and found I had probably done that previously because I have multiple models of the other variants which I think are for donors for these two and others.

About the Avon Sabre though, I've always had this impression that it was a unique Australian design where the idea was to use the RR Avon for power, and therefore was designed in Australia for that purpose. This included making the fuselage deeper though the intake section so the Avon has appropriate airflow.   

But wait ---- reading up on this and others, I'm actually wondering if it was.

That's because I was reading the instructions for the FJ-3 and found that this aircraft also had it's fuselage deepened through the air intake too, so that the Wright J65 had enough airflow (J65 was a licensed built AS Sapphire). Doing a bit of research I find that the two aircraft were designed at almost the same time, and they both flew for the first time a few months apart (the FJ-3 was first to fly). I'm now wondering if North American and CAC were sharing technology and information ---

Incidentally, the Avon and Sapphire used in these aircraft have almost the same specs, which I'm not entirely surprised at, as they were also the two engines used in the Hawker Hunter variants (amongst others, Canberra for another I think)

[elmayerle]

Looking forward to watching this build.  I doubt NAA-Columbus and CAC shared information, or CAC would not have had as difficult a time with their changes.  it's too bad they couldn't have coordinated, probably would have made life easier for both.

[kitnut617]

It might be just the quirks of the kits Evan, but the FJ-3 could pass for an Avon Sabre very well (at least the fuselage would.

There is an anomality though, reading about the Canadair Sabre Mk.6 which had an Orenda 14 installed, putting out almost the same thrust, there's no mention that the intake duct had to be made bigger. Now what's that all about ---

[elmayerle]

Well, yeah, the same basic fuselage modified to meet basically the same physical requirements gives a similar result (still say it's a shame they didn't collaborate, probably would have saved time in testing and saved on tooling, as well as giving a larger production run.  FJ-4 has the same intake as the FJ-3 but the rest of the aircraft is new.

Given that the Orenda 14 required some extra cooling scoops, IIRC, it quite possibly ran hotter than the Avon or Sapphire rather than pulling in more cold air, much like a J79 physically fits the same envelope as an Avon, Sapphire, or ATAR 9 but gives more thrust and requires more cooling air around it for the structure (hence the intake at the base of the Kfir's vertical tail).

Mind you, this is just informed speculation on my part without a lot more research.

[kitnut617]

Cheers Evan, your insight is always very helpful ---

So here's the plan, I'll try to build all these in the list below.

First though, what I've built (or half built) already.

One Heller F-86F, but just needs decals even though I built it years ago.
One Emhar FJ-4B, same as above.

These two some of you might have followed on the forum

One XP-86 straight wing, which I call a North American Bronco F.2b (as it's in RAF service)
http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=7763.msg138891#msg138891

One CL-10 Twin Fury, this was originally two Siga FJ-1's, but got converted ---
http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=4841.msg130691#msg130691

Next one is half built, I call it a Crecy Fighter, but not the Crecy V-12 engine. In the RRHT book on the Crecy there are some chapters on about possible uses of more advanced version, one suggested was a theoretical 24 cylinder 'X' engine putting out 8000hp. My model is my idea what could have used it in a fighter and based on an F-86D (top pic).

Now onto what I intend to build and what I have in my stash.

Matchbox F-86A (x2, used on other projects so just some parts)
Airfix F-86D
Heller F-86F
Fujimi F-86F
Fujimi RF-86F (x2)
Tauro F-86K
Hobbycraft Sabre Mk.4
Hobbycraft Sabre Mk.5
Hobbycraft Sabre Mk.6 (x2)
Emhar FJ-4B

Conversion kits.
Falcon TF-86F  (vac)
AirModel various, F-86H, F-86K, TF-86F & CA-27 (vac)
High Planes CA-27 (inj)
Falcon FJ-3 (vac)

I have a couple of other models which I might include into the build. I have two CMR Bell L-39-2 kits. These were P-63 fuselages fitted with F-86 swept wings to test slow speed flying.

And I could add the F-100 SuperSabre too, I've got a PM Models F-100C, a Frog F-100D and an Italeri F-100F

[elmayerle]

Cross one of the L-39-2 kits with an XP-63D or otherwise fit the bubble canopy from that version for an operational variant.

[GTX_Admin]

Re the CAC-NAA sharing of information, it wouldn't surprise me if there was some, informal sharing.  After all, CAC and NAA did have a strong relationship going back to the 1930s with the very first official CAC product, the CAC Wirraway which was a development of the NA-16 (which also led to the NA-16/BT-9/NJ-1/ Harvard I/NA-57/Sk 14 family).  Lawrence Wackett also wrote in his autobiography of the high regard he held NAA.  That said, I also suspect what you are seeing here may be more a case of different design teams coming up with similar solutions for a similar problem.

BTW, on a tangent, I do plan to still do a story based upon a far stronger NAA-CAC teaming.  This would involve the following in addition to the real-world CAC products:  CAC derivatives of F-82, FJ Fury series, F-100, F-107, OV-10 and Sabreliner.

[kitnut617]

Thanks guys ---

Making an 'operational' L-39 had always been in my mind, I was going to use one of the kits but I decided to elaborate on it a bit.  I always wondered why they didn't use a different aircraft for the slow speed testing, one like a Ryan FR-1 Fireball for instance. I had been giving this a lot of thought over the years and went as far as buying another FR-1 kit. Reading the Squadron Fireball in Action mini-book, there's a photo of a prospective USAF variant (or was that still USAAF) which had fixed wings, main gear that retracted inwards and a bubble canopy. Not forgetting the turbo-prop on the front either.

My idea though was to replace the R-1820 with an R-2800, add a fuselage plug in behind the wing to counter the weight, add some F-86A wings to it ---

[Brian da Basher]

I'm very pleased to see this thread and that you're going back to Sabres & Furys, Robert!

Your amazing kit engineering and impeccable style will do these birds proud!

Brian da Basher

[elmayerle]

Re the CAC-NAA sharing of information, it wouldn't surprise me if there was some, informal sharing.  After all, CAC and NAA did have a strong relationship going back to the 1930s with the very first official CAC product, the CAC Wirraway which was a development of the NA-16 (which also led to the NA-16/BT-9/NJ-1/ Harvard I/NA-57/Sk 14 family).  Lawrence Wackett also wrote in his autobiography of the high regard he held NAA.  That said, I also suspect what you are seeing here may be more a case of different design teams coming up with similar solutions for a similar problem.

BTW, on a tangent, I do plan to still do a story based upon a far stronger NAA-CAC teaming.  This would involve the following in addition to the real-world CAC products:  CAC derivatives of F-82, FJ Fury series, F-100, F-107, OV-10 and Sabreliner.

Perhaps CAC doing a both a naval and a land-based version of the FJ-5 that Jared's book covers?  I could see that as an intermediate step between the F-100 and F-107.  I could also see various versions being built of the two-seat F-107.

[kitnut617]

Hmm, seeing as I have two TF-86F's and two CA-27's, maybe I'll do a CA-27T ----- 

[GTX_Admin]

Hmm, seeing as I have two TF-86F's and two CA-27's, maybe I'll do a CA-27T -----

Or a Dingo...

http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=10.msg96613#msg96613

[kitnut617]

Hmm, seeing as I have two TF-86F's and two CA-27's, maybe I'll do a CA-27T -----

Or a Dingo...

http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=10.msg96613#msg96613

That's brilliant Greg 

[kitnut617]

I have made a bit of a discovery. While making plans for my Sabre/Fury theme build, I've been looking at the various kits I have. First one I was looking at to see what's involved is the FJ-3 (which will be a -3M when I'm done with it). In the Squadron in Action book on the FJ's, it says the main u/c legs of the FJ-2/3 had the wheel track increased by 8", but looking at the parts I have to make a FJ-3, it shows that the u/c wheel base was also increased by moving back the u/c leg (about 8" I think but not scaled it yet). The wheel bay for the leg itself runs parallel to the flap hinge line, while the part of the bay for the wheel remains in the same position as on the Sabres, just a different shaped wheel bay door for that part.

The discovery concerns the Matchbox F-86A kit I have, or I should say some parts for a F-86A. That's because I'm missing a fuselage --- so I was looking at converting one of the Heller F-86F's back to an 'A'. So I was matching the Matchbox F-86A wings I have with the Heller F-86F wings to see if there was anything to change, but then I noticed something ----- the u/c bay where the leg lies when retracted is running parallel to the flap hinge line. 3-Views of the F-86A don't show it like this. I'm thinking this wing is really for an FJ-2 (or more specifically an XFJ-2B)

Top pic is of the wing parts I have (silvery wing is the F-86F, blue wings is the F-86A and the white wing is the FJ-3), bottom pic is of a 3-View for the F-86A.

[kitnut617]

Another nice discovery I made while looking at some vacuform conversions I have. The AirModel sheet's instructions are a bit basic to say the least, but on the reverse side of the instructions, are drawings of all the different variations of wings that were put on the various variants of the Sabre.  With some hand written notes to say which wing went where --- very handy if you're planning to do something different other than the basic fair in kits ---

[kitnut617]

And another discovery I made yesterday. While searching the stash for something else, I found I had another 1/72 F-86F kit. This one is a Minicraft/Hasegawa kit.  But looking at the parts, I see it's a bit of an oddball.

That's because it seems to have used various F-86 variants to make it, it has F-86A rear fuselage but F-86F front fuselage, but also with a larger air intake. The oddest part of it is the wings, not only do they have the 6-3 leading edge extension plus slats, it also has the wing tip extensions. There's not anything in my references that comes close to what it's supposed to be, or from what example it might have been mastered from.

It doesn't have any wheel bays, but does have holes to put the u/c and doors into the wing surface. But then it has air brake bays. But I'm not really worried, it will all get used as a donor for some of the vacuform conversions I have. The wings will go on the F-86H vacuform fuselage and I'll cut the rear fuselage off at the engine removal separation joint and use it on another F-86 to back-date that one to an A variant. I got a couple of A canopies from Falcon to complete it.

[Kerick]

Whiff in a box!

[jcf]

F-86F-40 and on had the slatted 6-3 extended span wing, only the Canadair Sabre 6
had an original span slatted 6-3 wing. JASDF F-86s had the F-40 wing.

[kitnut617]

Cheers Jon, the two Fujimi kits I have, F-86F and RF-86F both have the -40 wing and JASDF markings, but they don't have the F-86A rear fuselage like this Minicraft kit has. The Minicraft kit does only have the JASDF markings though ---