Stridswagn 103 S-Tank without main gun

[Jeffry Fontaine]

The  recently acquired 1/35th scale Trumpeter S-Tank captured my interest last night while checking out the kit contents.  Being that this kit was one of trumpeter's first kits it is blessed with a low parts count. 

Other modeler's have built what-if subjects in the past based on the Trumpeter S-Tank so I am certainly not boldly going into unexplored territory but trying to create my own interpretation based on the S-Tank. 

My attempt begins with filling in the void in the hull where the main gun passes through the hull.  I placed a piece of scrap plastic underneath the void and traced the circumference of the oval shape with a permanent marker on to the piece of plastic. 

Next step was to rough cut the oval shape using my sprue nipper.  Once that was done I began sanding away everything that was not an oval shape. 

Repeated sanding with a coarse sanding board and equally coarse sandpaper finally got the shape that fit in the hull. 

I glued another piece of plastic scrap behind the void for strength and then glued the oval shape piece into the hole. 

I recall reading about some modelers having issues with the early Trumpeter kit and the plastic glue most often used for building models so I used my Tamiya liquid cement first and followed up with some Plastruct cement designed for ABS plastic.  So far it appears to be a good fit. 

Two attached images showing top and inside of the S-Tank upper hull with the now filled void. 

[apophenia]

Nice work, Jeff    I'm interested to see where you're going with your gunless S-Tank 

[Buzzbomb]

Plenty of ways forward with this vehicle.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

To ensure that the possibility of cock-ups are kept to a minimum.  I opted to assemble the rather anemic looking main gun barrel and the flexible gas turbine exhaust duct.  The turbine duct was a bit fiddly and one end cooperated while the other end did it's very best to self-destruct.  I attempted to use a small[ish] clamp to secure it and force the damned thing to stay together but that failed as the force of the clamp was far too much for the parts and the one end went sideways trying to split apart so the clamp was quickly removed and I resorted to finger pressure until the two parts set up and started to cure/dry. 

The gun barrel was much less problematic and went together as well as expected but it suffered from a case of extreme seam issues.  Much energy was expended in getting rid of the offending seams using sandpaper and a sharp knife blade followed up with some wet sanding and I set it aside to dry. 

I may bin the gun barrel after some additional deliberation but it also might find a new purpose elsewheres. 

[Old Wombat]

OK, a "gunless" S-tank ... with a gun!?

I'm guessing MGS but I could be wrong.

I didn't have any issues with my Trumpy S-tank using Tamiya cements.

[Claymore]

Very interested to see where this one is going. 

[LemonJello]

Yes, I too would like to subscribe to your newsletter...this is an interesting start and I am curious to see how it develops.

[Ramba]

Very cool! Looking forward to seeing this.

[finsrin]

So what will this become 

[Jeffry Fontaine]

OK, a "gunless" S-tank ... with a gun!?

I'm guessing MGS but I could be wrong.

I didn't have any issues with my Trumpy S-tank using Tamiya cements.

No on the main gun.  I built/assembled it to do something while the other work was drying/curing. 
Added the image to show how "anemic" the main gun appears as it does not look like a 105mm gun barrel once it is assembled. 

The glue issues were bothersome but I prevailed and the gas turbine flexible exhaust duct finally went together but it was with some difficulty that it did. 

[Jeffry Fontaine]

So what will this become 

A very lightly armed reconnaissance/scout vehicle is the current plan. 

[apophenia]

A very lightly armed reconnaissance/scout vehicle is the current plan.

Cool! 

... the main gun appears as it does not look like a 105mm gun barrel once it is assembled...

Making for interesting possible (future) applications. An 'anemic 105' could be anything from a modern 76 mm to a 90 mm 

[raafif]

A very lightly armed reconnaissance/scout vehicle is the current plan.

The Russians used a small missile, could an S-Tank mount one fired from a bigger stubby barrel ?  Crew protected inside to re-load.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

A very lightly armed reconnaissance/scout vehicle is the current plan.

The Russians used a small missile, could an S-Tank mount one fired from a bigger stubby barrel ?  Crew protected inside to re-load.

Have not given much thought to any kind of external missile mount of any kind.  The design of the Str-103 had three crew with the gunner/driver and commander/gunner facing forwards and a third crew member facing towards the rear of the vehicle for the purpose of driving the vehicle backwards/in reverse.  Dropping the main gun, ammunition supply, and loading/ejecting mechanics would free up a lot of space for other gear, equipment, stores, etc.  Space being at a premium in the original vehicle it might be practical to add in a rear access door where the loading ports and spent cartridge ejection port was located.  Installing a missile launcher on and inside the Str-103 could very well work with something like the French HOT ATGM system but that is a path I am reluctant to follow at this time. 

[Kerick]

I’ve always liked the idea of an S tank without the gun and carrying ATGM would be interesting but this looks like a very interesting development. A 20 or 30mm gun heavy enough to take out an APC?

[Jeffry Fontaine]

I made some additional progress on the modifications to my S-wagn.  The rear hull details for the ammunition loading and spent shell case ejection ports were removed with some casual and careful sanding under running water with a dab of dishwashing detergent.  After the initial sanding session I discovered that I had missed a small pot of the ejection port so another round and that too was done. 

With these details/features removed, I can now add an access hatch that will allow for crew access and egress.  Nothing fancy, most likely one of those extra hatches found in that AFV Club M151 RWS kit. 

[Jeffry Fontaine]

I’ve always liked the idea of an S tank without the gun and carrying ATGM would be interesting but this looks like a very interesting development. A 20 or 30mm gun heavy enough to take out an APC?

Hi Ken.  As much as I like the concept of adding a RWS of some kind, I am doing my best to avoid that.  I liken this what-if S-Wagn to a HMMWV type vehicle armed with small caliber light weapons performing a scout or reconnaissance mission.  What little internal space available is at a premium as it is so a basic load of 2K-3K rounds of 7.62X51 NATO and the MAG58/M240 GPMG is probably the most that this vehicle would be capable of carrying. 

With the space in back to hold other mission and sustainment items plus the crew of three (driver, commander, and go-fer/dismount-scout) the interior will be cramped. 

The one bit of kit on the S-Wagn that I truly like is the bulldozer blade at the bow of the vehicle.   

[Frank3k]

I like this idea! You could go with an FN MAG for light defense, but for real damage in a small package, you could add a Mk 19 grenade launcher.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

After some time to ponder the whole RWS thing it might work [for me] if I were to mount the AFV Club M151 RWS with a different commander's cupola that would place the M151 RWS forward of the commander in a configuration to how the M151 RWS is mounted on the M1126 Stryker IFV.  That would be the limit on any weapons upgrade to this niche vehicle with a bulldozer blade that is only slightly larger than an HMMWV.  : smiley:

[Ramba]

After some time to ponder the whole RWS thing it might work [for me] if I were to mount the AFV Club M151 RWS with a different commander's cupola that would place the M151 RWS forward of the commander in a configuration to how the M151 RWS is mounted on the M1126 Stryker IFV.  That would be the limit on any weapons upgrade to this niche vehicle with a bulldozer blade that is only slightly larger than an HMMWV.  : smiley:

That's a great idea having the RWS in front of the commander's cupola similar to the M1126.

[Buzzbomb]

I like the idea of a post gun tank role.

The Bundeswehr Jagdpanzer Kanone became a ATGW platform and also an Artillery Observation vehicle.
Recon role would be just as practical, it was pretty quick. Battlefield Sensor platform could be another role.

Sounds like you are moving ahead quite quickly

[Jeffry Fontaine]

I like the idea of a post gun tank role.

The Bundeswehr Jagdpanzer Kanone became a ATGW platform and also an Artillery Observation vehicle.
Recon role would be just as practical, it was pretty quick. Battlefield Sensor platform could be another role.

Sounds like you are moving ahead quite quickly

Thanks. 

The JPK 90 and the companion RPZ (Jasguar?) armed with the SS-11 ATGM and later with the HOT ATGM were both rather small vehicles that would be comparable in size to the S-Tank.  The long slope of the frontal armor on the S-Tank really eats up any internal volume so what little that is left pretty much leaves few missions available for the vehicle once the gun is removed.  My take on this is a vehicle that would be able to make or clear obstacles with the bulldozer blade and also perform a scouting mission for perhaps some engineer unit that specializes in building bridges or river crossings. 

As for the moving ahead quickly, I am not going that fast as I really want to see definite progress in lieu of a cock-up. 

[Claymore]

As they say, ‘slow and steady wins the race!’ 

[perttime]

One of the main design points of Strv 103 was that it is a small and low target. They had some WWII data about hits on tanks. Hits high on a tank were more common than low hits. So, I'd be wary of adding structures that increase its height.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

One of the main design points of Strv 103 was that it is a small and low target. They had some WWII data about hits on tanks. Hits high on a tank were more common than low hits. So, I'd be wary of adding structures that increase its height.

You got that right! 

The less is better path is what I am striving for.  Staying low to the ground/horizon means better survivability for a scout/reconnaissance vehicle.  The bulldozer blade might actually be quite useful for that purpose as it could let the S-Wagn dig into the ground to be less visible at a distance.

The rear hull now having been sanded smooth of the features now looks ready to have one or two spare Stryker IFV hatches added to it.  Was considering a single hatch at first but there appears to be sufficient space available to maybe give it a split access hatch using two Stryker hatches in a fashion to what is seen on the Merkava MBT.  One opening upwards and the other opening/swinging downwards as a ramp.  Too early to tell right now as I have to dig out an additional Stryker hatch to do some check-fitting.  The other option [if I can find the damned part] was a rear ramp from an old Tamiya Marder IFV that has been bouncing around in my parts pile for far too many years. 

[Gingie]

Maybe a little fennel mast mounted sight or one stolen from here:

[Story]

Why not either a

1) drone control station

or

2) drone jamming station

See also https://www.washingtonpost.com/video-games/2020/07/28/new-israeli-tank-features-xbox-controllers-ai-honed-by-starcraft-ii-doom/

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Maybe a little fennel mast mounted sight or one stolen from here:

Why not either a

1) drone control station

or

2) drone jamming station

See also https://www.washingtonpost.com/video-games/2020/07/28/new-israeli-tank-features-xbox-controllers-ai-honed-by-starcraft-ii-doom/

No!  Mission creep is a cancer! 

[Kerick]

A great place to find homes for orphan parts!

[apophenia]

Maybe a little fennel mast mounted sight or one stolen from here:

Hmmm. One of those looks familiar 

[Claymore]

No!  Mission creep is a cancer! 

It surely is! Selection and maintenance of the aim is fundamental to success. 

[Story]

Maybe a little fennel mast mounted sight or one stolen from here:

Why not either a

1) drone control station

or

2) drone jamming station

See also https://www.washingtonpost.com/video-games/2020/07/28/new-israeli-tank-features-xbox-controllers-ai-honed-by-starcraft-ii-doom/

No!  Mission creep is a cancer! 

I meant as it's primary mission. Carry on, tho.

[Kerick]

In today’s world a scouting vehicle with a mast sight would be very logical. The TOW humvees spent most of their time in overwatch positions.

[GTX_Admin]

Some repeat/overlap of ideas from this thread

[Kerick]

I now have a plan for my M41 Walker Bulldog assault gun. Instead of the StuG 3 casement I was thinking of I’ll use a Strv 103 front end with the 105 gun.

[Frank3k]

You'll probably still need a casemate for the gun - the M41 is just under 6m long and the S-103 is 9 meters.




The gun on an M41 would have its barrel hanging out in a different zip code.

[Story]

If they can wrap a plane around a 30mm Gatling then they can wrap a tank around a cannon. 

Or why not fit the S-tank with a GAU-8/A and use the weapon's exhaust gasses to power a blower on the engine, Mad Max style? 

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Not much accomplished this past weekend on the S-Wagn.  I finished sanding the rear hull plate to remove all remaining surface features and discovered that by doing so that I managed to reduce the overall dimensions by about one millimeter which in turn has created a very tiny gap along the top edge of the rear hull.  I should be able to obscure this gap eventually with something but it currently sticks out like the proverbial "sore thumb" to remind me of how easy it can be to really cock things up. 

The shiny spot at the bottom is where the liquid cement bled through and caught my thumb while I was attaching the part.  Fortunately no finger print, just the liquid cement scar to clean up later. 

[Jeffry Fontaine]

One more WIP image to add this morning.

I had been trying to find something suitable to place over the hole for the main gun barrel.  My searches up to now for the ideal covering for that bothersome hole had not been successful.  That all changed this morning while I was digging through my stash of miscellaneous bits and pieces.  Years ago while stationed in Germany I had purchased an HO scale ROCO Mini-Tanks tread way bridge kit that included pontoons and the roadway sections.  A neat little kit but definitely not in my area of interest aside from being a source of parts.  I gave the pontoon parts away years ago and kept the tread way parts.  Until this morning the parts had no purpose.  I did a quick fit check and found the tread way parts to be ideal in width and long enough to not be in the way at either end.  I just finished cementing the piece in place and I am happy with how it looks with the tread pattern providing a surface feature over that area of the hull. 

[Old Wombat]

Certainly looks better than plain ol' styrene sheet!

[Ramba]

The cover looks great.

[Frank3k]

That cover does look good! Like it was intended to be there by design.

For the gap, you could glue a strip of styrene at the bottom. Or an Evergreen (or equivalent) L channel to make it easier to cover the gap.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

The "L" Channel suggestion would be ideal if I had some of that particular material on hand.  Will have to see if I can craft something to fill the open spaces at the top and bottom for continuity purposes.  I was just happy to have found the bridge part to fill the majority of the space.  If I had found that earlier I would have gone with it first instead of slapping a piece of scrap plastic on the underside and filling the cavity with Squadron green putty brown goo that did work but was rather unsightly when cured. 

Also it was rather early this morning when I was working on the S-Wagn.  I could not sleep, was tossing and turning for several hours and opted to get up instead of just laying in bed being miserable, that was around 0130 my time here.  So this was a long day.  I only just crashed 1000 and actually got about three hours sleep so back up at 1330 and now trying to rehydrate.  A great way to start the week off.  Not!   

[raafif]

I had been trying to find something suitable to place over the hole for the main gun barrel.  Years ago while stationed in Germany I had purchased an HO scale ROCO Mini-Tanks tread way bridge kit that included pontoons and the roadway sections

Used these & other HO/OO railway bits too

[apophenia]

Sleepless nights suck, Jeff!  But ... you did get a really nice gap-solution out of the deal 

The "L" Channel suggestion would be ideal if I had some of that particular material on hand.  Will have to see if I can craft something to fill the open spaces at the top and bottom for continuity purposes...

Could scrap styrene be shaped to resemble those shot-deflecting ridges to either side? I'm thinking those could cover the gaps while seeming to have some function.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Not having any of the Evergreen structural plastic available, I used some of the regular Evergreen plastic strips at the top and bottom as suggested.  While not as sharp looking as I would prefer, it will pass the casual first look test. 

[Buzzbomb]

Nothing to see here  That worked out great

[Kerick]

If anyone asks it’s the skid plate for traction when the troop climb up the vehicle from the front.

[Gingie]

No!  Mission creep is a cancer! 

"Mission creep! Mission creep! Mission Creep!!"

[Jeffry Fontaine]

If anyone asks it’s the skid plate for traction when the troop climb up the vehicle from the front.

Most definitely!

[Kerick]

Here’s a crazy idea that I have no idea if it would be practical or not. What if the hull were cut just above the tracks and raised six inches or so. Would this create a usable increase in the crew compartment volume? Extra space could be used for missile gear black boxes or communications stuff and super spy gear for the recon role. Definitely not an armor guy so I’ve no idea if this would be in the world of reality or total whiffery. I’m sure this would really flip the lids on the rivet counters.

[raafif]

Here’s a crazy idea that I have no idea if it would be practical or not. What if the hull were cut just above the tracks and raised six inches or so. Would this create a usable increase in the crew compartment volume? Extra space could be used for missile gear black boxes or communications stuff and super spy gear for the recon role. Definitely not an armor guy so I’ve no idea if this would be in the world of reality or total whiffery. I’m sure this would really flip the lids on the rivet counters.

Why not do that but go for an APC with full height interior -- why should the troops have to stoop all the time.  Oh, yes ... add hand-hangers from the ceiling - like in the M-113.

[Kerick]

Here’s a crazy idea that I have no idea if it would be practical or not. What if the hull were cut just above the tracks and raised six inches or so. Would this create a usable increase in the crew compartment volume? Extra space could be used for missile gear black boxes or communications stuff and super spy gear for the recon role. Definitely not an armor guy so I’ve no idea if this would be in the world of reality or total whiffery. I’m sure this would really flip the lids on the rivet counters.

Why not do that but go for an APC with full height interior -- why should the troops have to stoop all the time.  Oh, yes ... add hand-hangers from the ceiling - like in the M-113.

That would be an interesting idea.
I was going for just a little extra room for black boxes but you could definitely pack in some scouts your way.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Here’s a crazy idea that I have no idea if it would be practical or not. What if the hull were cut just above the tracks and raised six inches or so. Would this create a usable increase in the crew compartment volume? Extra space could be used for missile gear black boxes or communications stuff and super spy gear for the recon role. Definitely not an armor guy so I’ve no idea if this would be in the world of reality or total whiffery. I’m sure this would really flip the lids on the rivet counters.

Why not do that but go for an APC with full height interior -- why should the troops have to stoop all the time.  Oh, yes ... add hand-hangers from the ceiling - like in the M-113.

That would be an interesting idea.
I was going for just a little extra room for black boxes but you could definitely pack in some scouts your way.

Just say NO to mission creep! 

With the main gun removed along with the ammunition storage apparatus there would be plenty of room for the reconnaissance/surveillance related bits of kit and equipment. 

Modifying the hull to gain additional roof height in something such as the S-wagn would require some major structural work.  The extreme angle of the front glacis and the engine compartment would require a lot of reconfiguration which is fine if you are starting from scratch but to attempt something that grand on an already constructed vehicle would be a serious waste of resources and a test of one's patience from my perspective.  As the one holding this model at the moment, that kind of work is way outside of my intentions as I wanted to create an agile vehicle that would be difficult to spot at normal distances before the shooting starts.  A mission similar to the Diamler Dingo as an example but with a tracked vehicle and only slightly larger. 

[Kerick]

At least it got this thread going again! I would love to see this build finished.   

[Old Wombat]

The Strv 103 is a very small tank.

The third crewman is, really, squeezed in as an after-thought (he actually sits at almost 90^o to the direction of travel to drive the thing & has to reach over his shoulder to access the radios) to provide an extra body to assist with maintenance tasks. His nominal roles of radio operator/reverse driver are not really required; the TC can operate the radios from his position using an existing switching system & the (front) driver can reverse the tank using cameras.

Removal of the third crewman, the gun barrel & breech, the auto-loader & the stored ammunition don't, actually, increase the available volume, or even floor space, by all that much.

You'd be hard-pressed to get a four-man squad in there without Jeff's recce equipment, even with a raised box-section roof aft of the TC & driver.

To me, Jeff's dedicated recce vehicle makes the most sense, given what can be done without a complete re-design of the hull.

[GTX_Admin]

The Strv 103 is a very small tank.

Indeed - see below to give some idea: