Author Topic: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)  (Read 24622 times)

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #50 on: January 15, 2015, 09:50:47 PM »
And now I've got both wings up to the same level of modification.  Had to remember how I did the first one because I couldn't find the Flightpath instruction sheet, but then looking for something else the instruction sheet turned up, so no problems encountered.

Offline Weaver

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #51 on: January 16, 2015, 05:02:34 AM »
Great stuff - this is an awesome project!
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #52 on: January 16, 2015, 05:25:52 AM »
Thanks Harold, knowing that you worked at the factory, I'm glad you like what I'm coming up with.

As to the Vulcan B.1-B.2 wing difference, the B.1 wing tip is where the wing tip end of the new resin leading edge part is, so the end has a fairly long chord to it. As you can see in the 3-View, this wing tip chord is quite short.  Scaling the 3-View, it seems that the wing span is close to what a B.2 wing span is.  The difference between the two wing spans is 11 feet, but the difference between the two fuselage diameters is only 3'-3". So after I make up my wing connection and the wings are glued on, I'll trim the wing tips to the same span as the B.2. I think it will end up pretty close to what the 3-View shows.

I've also realized I don't have to spend a lot of time measuring the actual model to make my fuselage/wing connection parts, I can do it all in my AutoCAD program which will make things much easier.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 05:27:53 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline Buzzbomb

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #53 on: January 16, 2015, 05:44:47 AM »
This is bliss watching this come together.


Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #54 on: January 16, 2015, 06:51:34 AM »
Thanks mate!

Offline apophenia

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #55 on: January 16, 2015, 07:05:52 AM »
Amazing work!  :)  And I love the switch to burnerless Iroquois too  ;)
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #56 on: January 16, 2015, 07:12:17 AM »
Thank AP, the Iroquois dry rating was 19,000 lbt, only a little short of an Olympus 301 (20,000 lbt). And it was a smaller diameter engine so there was room for development. With a little bit of tweaking, Orenda could quite easily match the Olympus for power I think.

Offline apophenia

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #57 on: January 16, 2015, 11:33:02 AM »
In Fall of an Arrow, Murray Peden says that the PS-13 was run at 20,000 lb dry thrust in April 1957. But by the time it was test-flown on the B-47, the Iroquois was only running at 16,000 lbs (presumably to spare the trials engine).  Sounds like Orenda had already matched the Olympus ... making the new engine reliable is another story, of course  ;)
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #58 on: February 08, 2015, 01:51:49 AM »
Sorry guys, I'm not getting very much done at the moment, the new job I started isn't quite what I was told it would be. I was told it would be 4 days on, 4 days off, but I've only had one day off in two weeks working 12 hr shifts (plus 3 hrs traveling) and tomorrow I start night shift for a week.

I have managed to transfer the wing chord profiles into my computer and started to work out the parts I need for the multiple spars for the wing/fuselage connection.  I've discovered something else though, what I have found by looking at cutaway drawings of the Vulcan, that aircraft's main and rear fuselage is in line with the wing chord center with the nose section drooping down 4.5 degrees. This doesn't happen with the Atlantic -- so now I have to decide which is the easiest way to create my new connecting spars.  Do I keep them vertical to the fuselage, or vertical to the chord centerline.  This is because the Vulcan wing has an incidence of 4.5 degrees although the most I can get with the Atlantic is 3.5 degrees.  This is mainly to do with where the RW spars would be in the wing in relation to where the cabin floor is in the Atlantic.

In this image below, you can see how the inner most chord profile (in purple) interacts with the Atlantic fuselage (in red). You can see one of the little stars right on the centerline of the fuselage, this happens to be about where the engine front is located which also has a short spar in a Vulcan wing, the main front Vulcan wing spar is further forward but in this project it doesn't have to be the front main spar ('cause there's no bomb bay in the Atlantic)

The two blue lines are where the fuselage starts to taper to the rear, #1 line is where the top profile line starts (also where the side profile lines start in the top view, also where the trailing edge of the wing is located), and #2 line is where the bottom profile line starts.  I had thought this was to have more clearance when the aircraft rotates for take-off, but then realized it's nothing of the sort.  This is because the tailpipe fairings hang way down below the bottom of the wing and would actually be the first thing that strikes the ground if the aircraft was over rotated.  What I did find is that this bottom profile almost matches the rear third of the bottom chord profile of the wing,

So you can see the dilemma I have, do I make the new spars vertical to the fuselage (just need a round hole in some styrene and then work out the tapering of the wing from one mating surface to the other, or do I rotate these spars to make the tapering easier and then have to work out what the elliptical shape would be for the fuselage connection.

I should mention that the centerline of the chord I'm using, is actually the Vulcan kit's top and bottom wing half joint line and may not be the actual chord centerline, I mention this because when transferring the chord profiles into the computer, I found the bottom half of the chord is deeper than the top half, which would make the airfoil upside-down. Unless delta wings are like that ---
« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 02:16:03 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #59 on: February 16, 2015, 02:38:11 AM »
I'm really disappointed I couldn't get this project done   :icon_crap:   :icon_sueno:  , I really enjoyed doing it though and fully intend on finishing it.

Offline Buzzbomb

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #60 on: February 16, 2015, 08:22:50 AM »
This is pretty tough.
Though I am sure in full time we shall see this beasty.
And for that time, I am really waiting as I have loved this build

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #61 on: February 28, 2015, 10:54:15 PM »
Could a Moderator move my thread into the Physical Models - Aerospace section please. I do intend on finishing this ----

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #62 on: March 01, 2015, 09:56:31 PM »
Thanks guys

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #63 on: March 02, 2015, 02:35:36 AM »
Just caught this thread and I'm definitely watching with interesting.  I quite enjoyed In The Wet and I can't help but wonder if bits of it were inspired by English politics of the period (Labour riding quite high).  The voting scheme proposed therein is fascinating and, while I'm not at all sure if it would work, I'd love to see it explored further as it seems to have potential.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #64 on: March 02, 2015, 02:53:02 AM »
I've read Evan, that Nevill Shute did not like socialism at all, and a number of his books derides it.  So far this has been the only book of his that I have read completely, I quite enjoyed it but it does pose a number of interesting lines of query, one being -- just how did he get to know about the Atlantic when it had only just been drawn up and proposed to the UK Government.  Was it common knowledge amongst the aviation industry at the time  ??? his book was published at the same time the proposal was put in --- 

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #65 on: March 02, 2015, 02:59:49 AM »
Given that Neville Shute Norway had been active in the UK aviation industry for years (he, after all, was one of the founders of Airspeed), he could well have been aware of the general concept of the Avro Atlantic (the art on the cover of the paperback edition I have certain resembles it, too).  Between some of his other novels and his autobiography, I think it safe to say he had a rather poor opinion of socialism (he is one of my favorite British novelists, so I've read most of his works).  His last novel, On the Beach is something of a downer, but the one written immediately before it, Trustee From the Tool Room erases that quite nicely.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #66 on: March 16, 2015, 01:17:42 AM »
Well, drawing out the new wing to fuselage connection is proving a bit more interesting than I thought it would be. I've done it twice now but I still think I've done it wrong.  I decided to put the spars vertical to the fuselage, this means I have to work out what the correct shape is in the wing.    Think on it I will ----
« Last Edit: March 16, 2015, 01:20:29 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #67 on: May 10, 2015, 08:09:34 AM »
Been a while since I've done anything on this, but did manage to get something worked out with the 4-wheel truck for the main gear. I went with using some wheels from the Airfix Nimrod as the Aircraft in Miniature ones I had planned on using got a bit f&*$ed up.

Anyway some pics of what I've done.  I decided that the rear axle had to stay where it is, and then move the front axle forward. This is because in the wing's spar is right at the front of the wheel bay so we can't move in that direction. However, the Flight Global cutaway drawings show that the sub-spar the u/c leg hinge is attached to can move backwards.

So what with moving the u/c leg hinge backwards, but then moving the front axle forwards, it sort of makes the load cg of the truck about in the same place as the 8-wheel truck's would be
« Last Edit: May 10, 2015, 08:28:23 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #68 on: May 10, 2015, 08:15:47 AM »
A different view of the wheel bay modifications and how the truck sits in it, or I should say retract into it.

Because the oleo is not retracted to it's shortest length in the bottom pic (see the retraction video I posted further up to see the explanation for this in post #48), it doesn't show the u/c leg hinge lining up where it should, and of course the cylinder on the rear axle should be lying on top of the oleo.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2015, 08:25:41 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #69 on: May 24, 2015, 09:53:21 PM »
Your incredibly well-thought out engineering approach never ceases to bowl me over, Robert!

I don't think I've ever seen more convincing wheel well work!

Sure looks like your'e well on the path towards making a real prize-winner!

Brian da Basher

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #70 on: May 24, 2015, 10:54:09 PM »
Thanks BdB ---

Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #71 on: September 26, 2017, 09:12:42 AM »
Found this on Facebook.

Avro Atlantic model on display at Avro Heritage Museum.

Work in progress ::

I am giving up listing them. They all end up on the shelf of procrastination anyways.

User and abuser of Bothans...

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #72 on: September 26, 2017, 09:40:02 AM »
Also been posted on Secret Projects Forum Carl, nice find though.

Offline finsrin

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #73 on: September 26, 2017, 11:01:50 AM »
Is this the British "Sonic Cruiser" ?

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #74 on: September 26, 2017, 04:59:19 PM »
Is this the British "Sonic Cruiser" ?

Nah, the self loading cargo version of the Avro Vulcan:

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